Why Women Are Frustrated and Confused About Men and Dating

Updated on April 17, 2018
savvydating profile image

Yves mission is to teach women how to set parameters and to acquire "savvy" in order to attract positive relationships.

Many women are confused and frustrated about men and dating....and they don’t know why. Here is my take on this malaise: At one time, men were the hunters and women were the gatherers. On an intuitive level, this essence is still alive today. However, since the advent of the sixties sexual revolution, American cultural standards have shifted.

Men and women are exhibiting somewhat androgynous behavior. It is now becoming politically incorrect to make distinctions between men and women. Mind you, not everyone believes men and women are exactly the same, but some do. Thus, the distinctions between the sexes are blurred. America's sexual revolution has created confusion about the relational roles between males and females.

Consequently, there is a whole lot of friction going on in the world of dating.

For example, in recent decades, women have begun hunting and gathering for the male, so to speak. Traditional romantic roles are going by the wayside. Society has inadvertently produced a new male prototype who has become adept at not putting in the time and effort to pursue a woman who truly interests him---the way men used to do.

Such men are convinced that it is perfectly fine for him to be "a gatherer," but the problem is, women are not natural "hunters." Nevertheless, because women are ever the adapters, they have chosen to compensate for the rise of the culturally androgynous male, aka, the "male gatherer." She has now assumed his previous role---that of protector and provider.

Who is the male gatherer? He is the male who claims to have embraced equality, but who actually doesn't respect women all that much. You've come across him. He is the guy who let's the women come to him. He does not pursue women. He lives solely for his own pleasure. His take is, "If women want equal rights, let her prove herself to me."

1960s Cultural Movement

The 1960's cultural movement had good intentions and some positive outcomes. However, the sexual revolution has failed us in the area of love, romance and commitment. Unfortunately, too many American men have morphed into something we did not foresee coming----the "gatherer," who is not adept at committing, pursuing or providing.

Herein lies the crux of the matter: Feminists had the right idea about wanting more equality, as in equal pay, but they got a little side-tracked by the free love thing. What they didn't realize is that most men are more than happy to accept the "No Strings Attached" philosophy of "free love." His philosophy goes something like this: "If we live together, I will enjoy the convenience of having a quasi-wife, but without any messy responsibilities or financial risk."

The male gatherer is into "low stress" relationships. In the event he should decide a woman with whom he is co-habitating doesn't meet his needs after all, he has no problem leaving. His reasons why?

"She was too much trouble. Who needs the drama?"

Meanwhile, he takes pleasure in having sex on a regular basis. Gratification with no commitment and no repercussions---that's his motto.

Yet sadly, women offer themselves up to the male gatherer, even though he has lost his instinct for honest romance and true commitment. Courting women isn't part of the gatherers' paradigm. He believes relationships should be easy and uncomplicated. Easy come, easy go. His expectations do not mirror the truth, which is that anything worth having requires time and effort to have.

Thus, having experienced disappointment in dating for the umpteenth time, many women carry around a perpetual cloud of frustration and anger. Nevertheless, not wanting to appear passive, women continue the hunt.

“We have to go after guys," they insist. "If we wait, nothing happens." "What choice do we have?"

Confusion
Confusion | Source

Women who feel this way have a point, but their premise is wrong. She has another choice. She can let the man seek her. Here’s the thing. Women actually like having the man pursue her. His effort shows her he has a level of interest. She finds his pursuit of her hot and efficient - sort of like the engine of a BMW.

But the gatherer guy....well...he lacks drive. He's a Ford Pinto, or maybe a Volkswagen bus. The easy love thing works for him, but it isn't working for her. Apparently, easy love isn't so easy after all. Unwed mothers who struggle to raise their children without father's know this better than anyone. Unfortunately, the children get the raw end of the deal.

Tired mom
Tired mom
Percentage of Single Mothers Who are Hispanic
Percentage of single mothers who are White
Percentage of Single Mothers Who are Black
Percentage of Single Mothers Who are American Indian
42%
25%
67%
52%
Kids Count Data Center

What Needs to Happen

So what's a woman to do? First, she must learn to recognize the male gatherer. She must then stop throwing herself at his feet. Forever. Male gatherer guy does not have the inclination or the stamina for true romance women crave. He always leaves women feeling emotionally shortchanged. Why? Because he is, in fact, emotionally stunted. Chances are high that he didn't have a father to teach him the responsibilities of manhood.

In any event, any woman who truly wants an emotionally satisfying relationship with a man must first decide to place more value on her worth, her time, her career and her passions. In so doing, she changes her own perspective about the value of her life. Women must realize that meeting a great guy is icing on the cake. Icing is delicious; it can make a lovely difference---but it is still optional.

Women Have to Step Up Their Game as Well

She must learn to appreciate her womanhood and everything that being a woman entails, to include embracing her femininity. She doesn't have to become a man to be "equal." We are all equal by virtue of our humanity.

I knew a man who was a former hippie. He was highly educated, but the gatherer/hippie mentality never really left him. Anyway, he told me that he had lived in a commune where he really enjoyed his life. He talked about how fun it was to get naked and paint women's bodies. This, I gathered, was a type of foreplay. He went on to say that the only disagreeable aspect of commune life was that the women were, "Really messed up."

Not exactly the picture of a woman who has it "together."
Not exactly the picture of a woman who has it "together."

I guess so. Having multiple partners, not knowing who the father of your child is, and whether or not your lover(s) even remembered you from the day or night before would make any woman "a mess." The dirty little secret about the free love men of the 60's is that they were rampant chauvinists. They made love, smoked pot, quoted Nietzsche, Karl Marx, and existential poetry. They didn't do much else.

Meanwhile, the woman cooked, cleaned, scrabbled for food and even made herself available to other lovers at the request of her "main man." You know, equal love and all that. It's no wonder these women were so screwed up.

Meet the New Boss: Same As the Old Boss

The point is, male gatherers of the 1960's sexual revolution got used to the perks of free love. Not hard to comprehend. The problem we have today is that many men are content to view women in the same disrespectful manner as did the hippies back then. Unfortunately, women are still falling for gatherers. The problem however, is that when the going gets rough, because gatherer guy believes "she has too many expectations that don't match with my idea of fairness," it is all too easy for him to walk away. His feeling is, "I'll go my way and she can go her way."

To be sure, not all men act that badly, and I am not at all making that assertion. What I am saying is that our permissive society has created the "male gatherer" who does not understand why love and commitment actually matter. He thinks what matters is his freedom. After all, no one taught him how to respect women. His frustrated mom was probably working all of the time, and good ole' dad was MIA. Maybe his mom even lost the values she once had. Thus, the male gatherer had no positive role models to teach him what it means to become a grown-up. Consequently, he remains self-serving his entire life.

Shifting Focus

Common Reasons Why Men Don't Commit:

  • Males can get sex without marriage more easily than in times past
  • Males can enjoy the benefits of having a wife by cohabiting rather than marrying
  • Men want to avoid divorce and its financial risks
  • Men fear that marriage will require too many changes and compromises
  • Males face few social pressures to marry

Rutgers University's National Marriage Project

So naturally, it behooves the woman to shift her focus toward worthwhile men who actually enjoy pursuing a woman, who exhibit patience and caring, and who are willing to ignore the trend that presupposes men and women are exactly the same in every way.

Men and women are not exactly the same. Our bodies are different, our brains are wired differently, we communicate differently, we have different mannerisms, and in some cases, we have unique needs. But the male gatherer would have you believe this cannot be true, as that would not be fair or equal for him.

Long story short, women must become adept at letting the male gatherer go. In other words, she must learn to pare down the dating field. The smart woman values herself far too much to waste her time on a man who treats her as if she is worthless.

Finally, women must learn to become responsible for all the bad romantic choices she has made. She absolutely must take personal responsibility for her poor decisions; only then will she be able to turn her life around and thus begin to let go of the anger and frustration she had carried before. She will now be in a position to proactively guide her dating life in a manner that will finally allow her to experience true love and romance---the kind that has purpose, meaning, and staying power.

Confidence is sexy!
Confidence is sexy!

The smart woman does not play hard to get---she is hard to get. Let me explain. Playing hard to get suggests that a woman feigns disinterest in a man to whom she is attracted. Being hard to get has to do with the psyche of a woman who is selective about the kind of men she chooses to date in the first place.

Once a woman has determined she is interested in someone, she is free to capture his attention. However, she does this with care. She does not rush into a situation without first finding out what she is getting into. She learns to make better choices, always with long term consequences in mind. She becomes a more responsible and thoughtful woman.

A Word About Communication

Communication is a good thing, but some ladies mistakenly believe they must open up about every single thing that has ever happened to them "because that is only fair and honest." But the truth is, there is no reason for any woman or man to reveal everything about their feelings or their past relationships, in the beginning stages of dating.

We must open up at our own pace. In so doing, we are respecting our parameters and sense of privacy---and this is as it should be. A secure partner will respect your need to share your life stories at your own pace. In fact, no one really has to reveal anything that isn't relevant to the current situation. On the other hand, excessive secrecy in any individual is a red flag.

Dating: An Art

A woman who is thoroughly uncomplicated and too eager to please will not attract the love of a man who has the masculine fiber women crave. Her confidence as a woman, combined with her feminine spirit, is the magnet that consistently attracts truly good men her way. The woman who knows how to date well is very much at ease with her femininity. A worthwhile man will readily pursue a woman like her, but he is easily bored with a woman who does not provide him with any challenges whatsoever. A good man isn't looking for a doormat to walk over. The worthwhile man respects a woman who has backbone. Only gatherer's hate being challenged.

Positive dating also recognizes and appreciates the core differences between men and women. In truth, regardless of our cultural leanings, it's actually quite pleasurable to embrace the distinctions between male and female, rather than constantly fighting against them or, worse yet, attempting to act like the opposite gender. Masculine and feminine traits actually complement one another quite nicely---sort of like two pieces of a puzzle.

From now on, let the male gatherer do whatever he wants to do, just so long as he isn't doing it with you. Your responsibility as a woman is to turn your attention toward the man who shows you that he cares---through his actions. Listen to your woman's heart and mind. Only then will you be assured of love that will stand the test of time.

Truly.....Savvy

Questions & Answers

  • I'm about to graduate from college, I have never dated or had a girlfriend. I'm a pretty upbeat and outgoing guy, but the more I'm rejected, the more my confidence drops. Since lacking that same confidence is a turn-off, each rejection makes it harder to ask the next girl out. I'm worried that it's starting to make me depressed. At what point do I stop trying?

    Good question. I can understand your discouragement. I guess that you may need to refine your social skills a bit. For example, if you feel awkward, it could be you come off that way. Sometimes we have to "fake it till we make it" by acting more confident than we feel. It's also possible you need a man make-over. You'd be surprised how much a good haircut, cool clothing, and good shoes will make you feel.

    Whatever you do, don't ever give up asking women out. There is someone out there for you. If you have to slow it down for a time while you learn how to be more comfortable in your own skin, then so be it.

    You might want to take a karate class, or something along those lines, to help give you the boost of confidence you need. Whatever you do, stand with your shoulders back and go tackle this thing. You can do it!

  • How can men be the "hunter" while dating in this day and age?

    Think of dating has an intricate dance. She either decides to accept your lead, believing that your goal is to care about her, or she doesn't. (That is not to say that a woman should not show her interest in you. In fact, she most certainly can and should....but subtlety.)

    If you, as a man, spend too much time thinking about the legal ramifications of asking a woman out on a date, you're going to miss out on life. Most women don't want to ruin your life. Almost always, she wants love and fidelity as much as you do. Your goal is to work on yourself so that, if necessary, you can recognize "red flags" before you become emotionally involved with a woman who isn't right for you.

© 2012 Yves

Comments

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  • savvydating profile imageAUTHOR

    Yves 

    5 weeks ago

    Hi Rainmaker....I'm truly happy that you have your dogs and other interests. The key is to keep doing things that make you feel happiness. I also love that you're an "old-fashioned" guy. They're the best kind.

    However, you've taken 5 years off of dating. Consider it a hiatus that has now come to an end. You're at a great age to get "back on the horse" and begin dating again! Seriously, you don't want to be 58 and lonely. It's not a good plan.

    Also, I've probably met TWO whole people in my life who actually like to date or like seeking someone to date. As they say....You have to kiss a lot of frogs or frogettes, in your case.

    So seriously, Rainmaker, you can't get what you need unless you put a lot of effort into getting it. And most men are much, much better off with a wife and family. That is a statistical fact. And obviously, anything worth getting takes effort to get.

    You simply have to realize that there is definitely somebody for everyone, including you! So I implore you, make an effort to find that special person. Once you do, your life will be even better than it is now. One day, you could have a beautiful child of your own to raise and love with your wife, your partner, your helpmate. Good marriages still exist, but they take common sense and common goals to be successful. I have no doubt you can find your perfect love one day as long as you try.

    I'm cheering for you Rainmaker. It's time for you to get out of your comfort zone once and for all, and find that woman who is looking for someone exactly like you. She's out there. Trust me.

  • profile image

    Rainmaker79 

    5 weeks ago

    I see these ideas in this article as obvious sadly, many, possibly even most don't. Modern ideas of what men and women are screw up everything. No wonder divorce is so high. So many men I know (including myself) have completely stopped dating. I haven't been on a date since 2013 and have no prospects and have not even looked. I'm sure there are great women out there but they're incredibly hard to find and I just don't want to look anymore. Honestly, I'm happier now than since I was a kid (I'm 38). I have my interests I pursue and my dogs and I guess I no longer need or desire a girlfriend. I know I'm far from perfect but I am a gentleman and maybe a little above average looking and I really tried for years and I guess I ran out of interest. If I think about trying to date now, I just feel like its some horrible job I have to do and the desire disappears very fast. Im old fashioned and when I did date, I didn't treat women like this article describes but I still just didn't enjoy it. I guess I just never found the right one. If I could find the right one, I'm sure it would be great its just the looking I no longer want to do. Oh well. Like sucks then you die.

  • savvydating profile imageAUTHOR

    Yves 

    5 weeks ago

    Cackus, I am going to ignore your suicide theory for now because it is way too broad! However, I will say that Hussey is a dating coach who tries to help women, and who definitely speaks from a man's perspective.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W2dorvKDkvs

    Basically, he teaches women how to act so that men will chase and want the woman more. (Yes, he has used to word "chase" in a positive way. He's a little bit of a jerk sometimes, but not in a rotten way. Hussey is actually a proponent of making sure the woman knows how to make the man want more.

    As for myself, I do believe that it is okay for women to get the ball rolling, so to speak, but she has to do so in a savvy, non-desperate manner. That is what Hussey is proposing, as far as I can tell.

    He's a bit tongue & cheek, but that seems to be his personality.

  • profile image

    Cackus 

    5 weeks ago

    I ran across this (someone posted it on my fb)

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5xKGgglnO78

    I hope you will watch it (its' short only a few min and entertaining)

    I had to come back here and post a link because he so simply puts what a lot of men have tried to say here in this thread.

    Those "gatherers" you speak of are the %1 who approach.

    look at how many he put in the "never ask" category, I think it's an underestimate, but think about it.

    If %20 of men never ask out a women, and from experience I know if you don't ask you don't date. That's a lot of very unhappy men out there.

    Probably one of the reasons why the male suicide rate is so high.

  • savvydating profile imageAUTHOR

    Yves 

    2 months ago

    Hello Mroadmaster, Interesting comments you've made here. I cannot deny your observations as relevant, particularly with regard to highly successful women who prefer not to marry "below" them, so to speak.

    I would simply add that, for centuries, women were not given the capacity to contribute to the home financially as high income earners (unless she had a rich daddy) and so this new cultural shift, in which women have the chance to climb to the top of the financial ladder, is a relatively new phenomenon. Consequently, having scratched her way to the top, it is natural for the woman to expect the man to have the same ability. Otherwise, she cannot relate to him or view him as an adequate "hunter."

    But just to clarify, the "gatherers" I refer to in this article are simply men who are similar to the hippies of old, who basically let women do most of the work. That "work" today translates into allowing the women to pursue him. He just likes things easy. Easy come, easy go.

    The reality is that most women still earn average salaries and most men can match that easily.

    The 60's sexual revolution, created by both men and women, has created a cultural shift, but the cat's out of the bag now and we just have to deal with it as best we can. For my part, I continue to be the same person I always was, that is to say, a feminine woman who has self respect and who makes her own way. Works for me. ;)

  • profile image

    Mroadster9800 

    2 months ago

    Yves,

    As women become “hunters” in the economic sense, simple statistical distribution of talent (i.e. education, intelligence, maturity, effectiveness) suggest that a significant portion of women will surpass many men in the employment marketplace. From this position of success (and independence) the woman surveying the landscape of men that can be clearly defined as “hunters” will be naturally diminished. She has surpassed many of them.

    While many men may indeed be choosing a path that is less ambitious, women also have changed the landscape simply by moving through it and changing their vantage point. You are right to advise women to look for a better quality mate, but for the successful women that pool is ever shrinking. It is based not just on simple statistics of the limited space within the top quartile (now close to half occupied by women), but also on that woman’s own new perspective.

    Men in this top quartile will date women from a quartile below because they place less value on a woman’s earning power. Women likely will not do so. This places the men in the top quartile in tremendous demand. As noted here in other comments, men now see great risk in marriage and its potential fallout (as do many women). Sadly, for women, they are now competing in a marketplace hugely favorable to “hunter” men and that will make commitment even harder to extract from those men. Additionally it will leave many women behind.

    Your advice, while sound, will likely mean a fair number of women just squeezed out of the game. I don’t know the solution to this for either men or women other than to be the best you can be to both satisfy self and to be appealing within the relationship marketplace. It seems that is the advice you are espousing. However, as noted in many comments here, “gather” men (as you define them) are a likely consequence of females (rightly) succeeding. Not all will make it to a status (or even an attitude) appealing to women. They are now a byproduct of an ever shifting culture.

  • savvydating profile imageAUTHOR

    Yves 

    2 months ago

    Yes, College guy, live your life. No question. But Smarmy's advice to wait for the woman to ask you out is so bad, I hardly know where to begin. It is as if he is denying basic biology. Men and women have different paradigms in that there exists the male biology and the female biology. To ignore this reality is beyond foolish. If a woman asks you out and takes charge in every sense, she is actually viewing you as someone she can control.

    On the other hand, the natural role of the woman is to support, nurture and strengthen the union/marriage and the family. This is no small feat given the fact that men often need to be reigned in by the natural instincts of the woman.

    My point is this: Each sex has it's own unique strengths. To deny biological facts, or to forcefully try to change reality, is a fool's game.

    In all areas of our lives, we need to play to our strengths. That's just a fact of life. Long story short, College guy, (and Smarmy) if you wait for the woman to ask you out and to act like the man, you will be sorely disappointed.

  • profile image

    Smarmy2 

    2 months ago

    To college guy.

    If asking women out isn't working for you why would you keep doing it? It's obviously causing you stress. Go on with your life, if you spend it wondering why you are always single you will miss out and make yourself miserable. Obviously the right girl for you will be the one to ask you out.

    Until then, live your life.

  • savvydating profile imageAUTHOR

    Yves 

    2 months ago

    Thank you for the nugget of truth, Paula. I agree wholeheartedly with your Dad, and I hope the college student has a chance to read your comment. I feel badly for young people who feel compelled to give up, knowing full well there is someone out there who will mesh with them just right.

    Your Dad was a wise man.

  • fpherj48 profile image

    Paula 

    2 months ago from Beautiful Upstate New York

    Yves, I just happen to read a question the "college student" left for you. I vividly recall a statement my Dad repeated so often: He would often say, "There is "someone special" for every single living person, if they are interested in having a partner." As I matured, I came to realize that my father was 100% correct!

    Not a single soul is meant to go through life's journey alone, unless they so choose.

  • savvydating profile imageAUTHOR

    Yves 

    3 months ago

    Hi Nell....I hear you. Your kind of guy is the best. I really wish dating for young people or any people, for that matter, didn't have to be so complicated. Some of the negativity is all in our heads. Such a waste of energy. Thanks for stopping by!

  • Nell Rose profile image

    Nell Rose 

    3 months ago from England

    HI Yves, seems you have a lot of comments on this one. all I want to say really is I do like a guy who is polite, maybe older fashioned but with a sense of humour. the ins and outs of dating are luckily behind me as I am a happy bunny with my guy. wouldn't want to do it these days!

  • savvydating profile imageAUTHOR

    Yves 

    3 months ago

    Smarmy....I could not accept your recent comment. The tweets contained (some) unacceptable language---this time from women. I have no further comment in this instance.

  • savvydating profile imageAUTHOR

    Yves 

    3 months ago

    Smarmy....Cavill also said this: "There’s something wonderful about a man chasing a woman, There’s a traditional approach to that, which is nice. I think a woman should be wooed and chased, but maybe I’m old-fashioned for thinking that. It’s very difficult to do that if there are certain rules in place.”

    My take is that Cavill was sympathizing with guys who have to deal with hard-line feminists a nd confusing rules about dating. I do not blame him for being so forthright. In fact, I rather liked his honesty.

    But the fact is, Cavill is an old-fashioned guy. He is likely to maintain his preference of being the lead in the dance of romance which, by the way, has absolutely nothing to do with disrespecting women. Quite the opposite, in fact..

    But let's face it, most women would be happy to date Cavill. Also, most women will never have the chance to do so, especially if she denies her feminine instincts.

  • profile image

    Smarmy2 

    3 months ago

    Yves, I would ask how you would respond to Henry Cavill (Actor who plays the current superman)

    "It’s very difficult to do that if there are certain rules in place. Because then it’s like, 'Well, I don’t want to go up and talk to her, because I’m going to be called a rapist or something.' So you’re like, 'Forget it, I’m going to call an ex-girlfriend instead, and then just go back to a relationship, which never really worked.'"

    He added, "But it’s way safer than casting myself into the fires of hell, because I’m someone in the public eye, and if I go and flirt with someone, then who knows what’s going to happen?"

    He is then forced to apologize after this simple statement of self preservation threatens the exact consequences he is afraid of, a reputation and career ending mob called twitter. Some of which fell just short of saying outright that he is a rapist.

    Many implied it saying things like "is Henry Cavill's idea of flirting raping women" Jennifer Wright (Author)

    and that was one of the ones I wouldn't get censored for posting.

  • profile image

    Smarmy2 

    3 months ago

    No one should have to pursue anyone as that puts the pursued in a superior position and that is no way to start an equal relationship. If a women likes a man she should say so, men should as well.

    Games are for children.

    Unfortunately a small minority of sleezebag men who go around hitting on every women they see define all men. The result is an environment where it's a legally and morally questionable act for a man to initiate a relationship or even express interest.

    I wonder how many men who aren't MGTOW don't interact with women simply because they don't want to be that guy. They hear their mothers, sisters, GFs etc complain about men looking at them , hitting on them , annoying them etc and learn from an early age that asking women out is a bad thing and that there is something evil about the male sex drive, if not men in general.

    It's not just fear of being branded a "creep" like cackus pointed out, but simply trying to be a good person and respect womens right to go through life without unwanted male attention.

  • profile image

    RickJames69 

    3 months ago

    if you have to pursue a man, he's not into you. Its that simple. Women overrate themselves thinking they deserve a George Clooney type when they actually deserve that fat bald guy from Seinfeld

  • savvydating profile imageAUTHOR

    Yves 

    3 months ago

    Ken....Good point about men being afraid to be men. I see what you mean. Political correctness has exasperated the problem. Also, radical feminists like Linda Gordon, who believed that "the nuclear family must be destroyed" was not doing men or women any favors. But she got her wish and society is paying for that lunacy today. Women are not happier and obviously, men are unhappy too, given all these confusing non-roles having to do with gender equality. I've always maintained that men and women are different. Period.

    I admit to getting a bit fed up with my angry male readers who whine like girls, but maybe many of them have good reason to feel undervalued.

    Ironically, my article wasn't targeting MGTOW, but apparently I've touched a nerve with them. This article was originally meant to warn women about men who use women and who really don't provide because they are not particularly interested in working. This problem is particularly prevalent in poor black communities. MGTOW types, on the other hand, tend to be upwardly mobile.

    Anyhoo, thanks for reminding me that plenty of men have legitimate concerns. I believe good counseling could help some of my unhappy/angry readers to see the value in having a solid marriage---one in which he may experience the joy of home and raising competent children...or at the very least, to realize that not all women are horrible creatures. ;)

    Appreciate your stopping by again. Your observations are always interesting.

  • Ken Burgess profile image

    Ken Burgess 

    3 months ago from Florida

    Yves,

    Very sound counter. And I could concur with how it impacts our generation, one the one ahead or behind us perhaps as well.

    But lets be clear, by destroying the 'traditional' roles that women had, we have also eradicated the 'traditional' roles of men.

    Boys are expected to be like girls in school, boys that draw fights or battles are reported for psychological evaluations (even though this has always been normal for boys), boys that want to play rough, or cops and robbers are chastised, disciplined or expelled.

    Unfortunately in many schools being a boy has become practically illegal. Had I been a child in today's world I would have been expelled ten times over for the things I did, by the time I had reached middle school.

    I know this because I have two boys in school, fortunately they are in middle school now but it was a brutal road getting there, my son who is an honor role student two years running at one time was on the verge of being expelled (at 6 years old) due to the overwhelming stupidity running rampant in our schools and society today.

    If the men you have come in contact with seem unstable, unbalanced, or unfit for society it might very well be because they are, because that is what our society is churning out these days in a great many parts of America (and Europe) it is no longer OK to be a man, not in any context you or I remember men being back when we were kids or young adults.

    90%+ of people in prison are men, while 60%+ of people in college are women,

  • savvydating profile imageAUTHOR

    Yves 

    3 months ago

    Cackus....Destroyed for a mistaken look? No due process? What?? I get it. You've decided to avoid women. I'm pretty sure you wouldn't rather be burned to death, but MGTOW are dramatic. I'll give them that. Hope school is going well.

  • profile image

    Cackus 

    3 months ago

    Sorry for my late reply but I'm a busy guy between work, school and volunteering I don't have much time.

    How long ago you learned a hard lesson in life really doesn't matter does it? It's just one example of many that convinced me the current legal and social environment make any sort of relationship with women a perilous and unfulfilling journey.

    When an innocent boy can be destroyed for a mistaken look then we have a problem.

    Not acknowledging this fact isn't going to make it better.

    I know the same situation today could lose me my job, end my career, get me expelled without due process and tried in the court of twitter.

    I'd much rather be burned to death slowly then ever be falsely accused like that again.

    Until the witch hunt ends more GOOD men will avoid women.

    But don't worry the worst sorts of men will still be around, they have "game" and have no trouble sleeping around with lots of women spreading SDI's.

  • savvydating profile imageAUTHOR

    Yves 

    3 months ago

    I do NOT know you, James. The question mark was meant to be a period. You really should stop with the lecturing and shaming. It's getting old. Unless you can say something else or something useful, I may not accept any more of your posts. At this juncture, you are not adding to the conversation. You're merely being repetitive.

  • profile image

    James168 

    3 months ago

    You do know me? I think you are mistaking me for someone else. The thing is you should address the points made, and don’t personally attack or shame the person due to opinions or facts presented.....it is your blog however, and you can do as you choose.

  • savvydating profile imageAUTHOR

    Yves 

    3 months ago

    James168....What is it that you believe? You stated that I don't know you. You are correct about that?

  • savvydating profile imageAUTHOR

    Yves 

    3 months ago

    Ken, Many successful women are also going their own way, so in that sense, I don't mind if men do the same. The problem I've had with such men is that most of their posts here are really ugly, bordering on pornographic. I can't tell you how many posts I've had to delete for this reason. Consequently, my view of 99% of MGTOW is negative. I've seen their posts on Reddit. Lot's of bad stuff.

    But to answer your question specifically, I do get how the changes in society are a shock to men. Men know how to deal with other men in power, but they don't know how to deal with a woman who has the same or greater power in the workplace. Men are very competitive and they resolve things among one another in (male ) ways. Along comes the woman, and men don't know how to handle her....and why would they. Men are not women. They cannot read our minds.

    Anyway, the reason I push back with some of these men is because my research has shown that these guys generally do not fare well, psychologically, due to their cynicism. They tend to become bitter in their loneliness. Many replace pornography with real live women. If they become addicts of porn, their brain are affected in serious ways. Doctors today are reporting that many young men are having serious erectile dysfunction issues due to their porn addiction. A real woman cannot satisfy them; they cannot even become aroused by a normal, live woman.

    On the other side of the coin, some men just want to be left alone to mind their own business. Nevertheless, men generally need women more than women need men. The reason for this is because women tend to discuss their feelings with one another. This type of talk therapy is healing. Men, however, do not express their feelings as readily.

    As for laws changing to favor women, I am certainly not unhappy about that. Many women have suffered in silence in bad marriages, but they stayed anyway because that is what one did back in the day. If they left, even after 25 years of marriage, they would be left penniless.

    So do I blame men for checking out on women? I do if their leaving is based solely upon fear or cynicism. However, if they've dated, loved and lost and now just want to retire alone, I do not blame them. They will likely be lonely. However, that is their choice.

  • Ken Burgess profile image

    Ken Burgess 

    3 months ago from Florida

    Yves, I don't believe there are any advantages to being the man in today's society, the laws and social biases are inherently against him. Just as 50 years ago (and 500, and 5,000) they were set in his favor, and it was women who were at a disadvantage.

    However what went with that 'disadvantage' were all the things that one could call 'patriarchal society' today. Men went out and did the tough jobs (mined for coal, farmed the land, died in wars) while women controlled the home and raised the children. That was the archetypical way of things for thousands of years. Men protected, men worked, men died, and when men failed at those things the women and children suffered or died.

    But one has to consider the context of those times, life was tough, very tough, until a hundred or so years ago. There were no antibiotics, birth control pills, cars or cell phones.

    Our current 'age of enlightenment' is really very new, and the changes have occurred almost entirely in the span of our lifetimes... it goes against the grain of thousands of years of social norms, and millions of years of biological evolution.

    What we see becoming normalized today would have been considered either insane, or evil, just 50 years ago. When we see rights movements and marches in favor of legalizing pedophilia, and doing away with 'Father's day' we are not looking any longer at an 'enlightened' civilization, we are looking at one in decline and decay.

    This is the world young men are traversing these days, and 'going their own way'... can you blame them for taking what seems a sound, safe and pragmatic road to travel?

  • savvydating profile imageAUTHOR

    Yves 

    3 months ago

    Hi Ken.....Great point about the age difference and how our views cannot help but differ. I cringe any time I hear about any woman who deliberately sets up a man. I'd have to do some research on how often that occurs. Note to self: Look up more statistics on divorce.

    What I have learned is that women generally do worse after a divorce. In most cases, she struggles to make a decent living. If she has children, she is usually the primary caretaker. Generally speaking, she does not benefit from the divorce, except that now she is free of her spouse, to a degree.

    To your point about political correctness, I am beginning to think it would be well for me to research and write about why MEN are frustrated and confused about women and dating. If I were a chivalrous man, I'm pretty sure I would dislike all women who are offended by my pulling out her chair or opening her door. As a woman, hearing those stories gives me a big headache. I really wish women would stop acting as if they have to be like a man.

    I've gone off on a tangent a bit, Ken. Thank you for stopping by to add interesting information on the exchange between Sokes and myself.

  • Ken Burgess profile image

    Ken Burgess 

    3 months ago from Florida

    Yves,

    If I may intercede at the point of Sokes12’s reply and your reply to him in response.

    First, lets state what may not be obvious to either of you. Generation Gap.

    The difference between women in the 40+ age range (which your response more or less covers) and the 30ish age and younger (which Sokes12 has pretty much targeted) is substantial, really substantial if they have been indoctrinated with years of university unreality.

    For a man, in America’s current climate (legal and social) it is prohibitive to become involved with a woman, the psyche wards and prisons are filled with young men who made that mistake.

    The most likely cause of a man being imprisoned in America today is because of charges brought against him by a woman or on a woman’s behalf. There are men dragged away by police because their girlfriend or wife called the police and said they were suicidal, even if they are not. There are men arrested for threatening to kill a woman, even if they never did so. In today’s society, a man only has to upset the wrong woman at the wrong time, and his career, his livelihood could be destroyed, or his freedom stripped away. A man is guilty until proven innocent in today’s society and in a court of law.

    I know a man whose wife accused him of rape and assault, in that State all such accusations made by a woman are considered factual unless it can be proven otherwise. She won custody of the child, and full child and alimony support. She then went on to shack up with her boyfriend that she had on the side, the whole thing had been planned by her.

    A relationship is similar to playing Russian Roulette, you may get lucky a few times, but sooner or later the more times you pull that trigger, the more likely serious damage is going to result.

    Almost everything from our times Yves, would be considered sexist or patriarchal in today’s society. My wife and I sat down last night and watched the pilot episode of the tv show CHiPs, it should have been funny, but much of its content would be considered racist, sexist, and who knows what else by todays ‘enlightened’ standards... I think the watching of it made us both realize just how far our country has fallen into a state of deluded insanity and stupidity.

  • profile image

    James168 

    3 months ago

    So, if I agree with some MGTOW points, that makes me MGTOW? How are they my friends? Why is it my job to reprimand them? If I was a German and I thought the autobahn and Volkswagen were good ideas, does that make me a Nazi? A person can decide for him/herself what ideas they like...to fall blindly in footstep to any ideology is a lack of critical thinking. I think most ideologies have some salient points otherwise people wouldn’t follow them. Should a good idea be disregarded because of a crap ideology? An individual can pick and choose what he/she thinks is the right course for them. Most people who think things through in my opinion are middle of the road..... thoughts?

  • savvydating profile imageAUTHOR

    Yves 

    3 months ago

    James, In agreeing with your MGTOW friends, who shame and demean women, you set yourself up as one who is no different than they are. So you might want to take your own advice, or better yet, speak to them about their bad behavior. Not once have you reprimanded them.

    That being said, most of your posts are simple questions and not all of them are shaming, however, your finger pointing is rather off-putting. (We've been down this road before.)

    I agree that civil discourse is a positive, but I also recognize leading questions when I see them. I don't have to answer those. In fact, most posts by MGTOW go straight into the trash bin because they qualify as hate-speech. On occasion, however, I will choose to answer some questions from the "Reddit team" even though their minds are made up 99.9% of the time. Mostly, I answer for other readers who have more open minds and a better grasp of many facts, not just over-stated, negative bullet points.

  • profile image

    James168 

    3 months ago

    Yves, you know nothing about me or my life. It would be nice if you just addressed the points brought up. Oh, and I am in a position to talk about whatever I like, just as you are. Just remember, shaming is weak and isn’t conducive to dialogue.

    You are correct however, that marriage was the glue that kept society together. But the institution is so radically different nowadays, until it changes I don’t see why men should take that chance.

  • savvydating profile imageAUTHOR

    Yves 

    3 months ago

    James168....I don't think you are in a position to talk about veiled shaming. As I mentioned before: Life is not all "black & white." Furthermore, if you choose a no-risk life, then you really cannot expect much of a return, if any.

  • profile image

    James168 

    3 months ago

    I really don’t see how your response to Sokes is pure genius. Just a few bullet points:

    ... the nursing homes are filled with both men and women who are forgotten by their families and spouses......fact.

    ... the majority of men in jail are from single mother house holds... fact. Great job there.

    ... No fault divorce makes marriage a joke... fact. It is too easy to leave your spouse for trivial reasons. There is no for better or worse.... it is an empty vow.

    You are correct that marriage the way it used to be was a good thing, however; what it has become is far from good.

    I guess all a man has to do is find a good woman.... if you had the answer to that you would be a rich woman.

    Oh, and the veiled shaming is just unbecoming......

  • savvydating profile imageAUTHOR

    Yves 

    3 months ago

    Ha! Food for thought! Thank you, Paula. I never tire of your encouragement. All of us on Hubpages are incredibly lucky to have you.

  • fpherj48 profile image

    Paula 

    3 months ago from Beautiful Upstate New York

    BOOM!! Yves, you're amazing. Your response to "Sokes12" is pure genius. It's long overdue that you hop on the public speaking stage!

  • savvydating profile imageAUTHOR

    Yves 

    3 months ago

    Sokes….My response is for those who might be interested, but not necessarily for you…

    On your assertion that single mothers cannot raise boys: While it is true that statistics show that children raised with two parents (male and female) do better than children raised by one parent, it is still possible for the mother to make sure the boy child has a male influence in his life, such as a brother, uncle, grandfather and even the biological father (provided he isn’t a deadbeat dad). On the other hand, two bad parents are still going to raise an unhealthy child. FYI: The government does not give single mothers’ everything, although it might allow a family to barely subsist. But that is a whole other topic.

    As for mothers teaching children to be themselves, that isn't the dreadful thing you make it out to be. A good mother will also teach their children to follow through on their plans and take responsibility for their lives. That way, the child can do what they love and still make a living.

    Why get close to women or marry, you ask? Well, the choice is yours. You can remain single your entire life if you wish to do so. You can also worry about STD’s your entire life too, if you wish.

    In any event, marriage is a positive construct. Fact: Marriage holds societies together. Once a marital commitment is made, the couple is less likely to walk away over something trivial. They begin to enjoy making long-term plans. The male becomes committed to the family; he takes pride in his offspring, he enjoys the home life that only a loving woman can create; he feels more motivated to move upward in his career for the sake of the family. Men may have a son to carry on the family name, which is something he takes pride in. Also, he can count on his wife to be there when he is sick or in the hospital. However, a single man who refuses to marry because he wants to hold on to his money, will likely wind up in a nursing home with no one (excuse my French) to wipe his sorry ass. But a wife will do that and so much more. In times like those, a good woman may not seem like such a liability after all. In fact, the influence of a good woman makes the man a happier and more well-rounded person.

    As for women not having hobbies, not cooking and not doing anything, that’s just plain false. Most women work outside of the home, plus they have the babies, do most of the caretaking, the cooking and the decorating. She likely has a hobby. Perhaps you’re a young guy who only dates bimbos, but you can certainly choose better. However, either you don’t want to or you’re afraid to try. You might risk falling in love, God forbid. One day, however, when the libido fails, and the hair starts thinning, life isn’t going to look so easy anymore. You might wish you’d had a wife who will love you anyway. Frankly, the free sex thing will be a thing of the past. Truth is, married men tend to be healthier (because his wife sees to his health), he tends to be wealthier (because he is motivated by his family). Single men, on the other hand, generally do not fare as well. They tend to become quite lonely and unmotivated.

    The problem is: Unless any man changes his unrealistic, negative black and white view toward women, he’ll never be given any option other than to date women who are as cynical as he is, in which case he can never have a successful marriage. What a sad way to live. Even though times have changed, good men and women exist, and they absolutely value commitment and fidelity. However, you’ll never meet a good woman until you become a better man. The choice is yours. Both men and women have the power to make better choices. Neither sex has anyone to blame but themselves.

  • profile image

    Sokes12 

    3 months ago

    Just ask the guy if he was raised by a single mom, if he says yes then move on. Women cannot raise good men, they don't understand the rules of male society.

    Mothers who tell their sons to 'be themselves' and 'try your hardest' are the cause of these weak men. That's now how it works for men.

    It's do or die. You wouldn't understand that because the government gives you everything you need if you don't have it.

    Also there's nothing confusing about not wanting to date someone in general. Why bother? Sex is free and easy these days and the laws are tilted against men so why get close if you never plan on marrying?

    What does dating as a man really even mean? He's gotta pay for stuff. That's it, all that's left. His friends are closer to him than you'll ever be and he only sees them on the weekends. You don't have a hobby, you don't know how to cook, you don't do anything but play on your phone. You bring nothing to the table.

    What exactly do women have to offer as a long term partner? That's the key part that you just don't seem to be able to answer. The author is right about the 'free love thing'. Bottom line, you're a liability long term.

    Only women can fix this, which means it won't ever be fixed because it'll be a cold day in hell before they take collective responsibility for this crap culture they've created. This is your mess. You made this. You fix it. Frankly, men won a level you can never comprehend with the feminist movement. You didn't free women, you freed men. Because it was really men who were the slaves. They fought the wars, they worked 16 hour days in dangerous factories so you can shop all day and get your nails done.

    And then you called that oppression. Ok ladies, here you go. Here's all the bullshit, now deal with it. But let's be real, if you could deal with it you would be doing something other than talking.

  • savvydating profile imageAUTHOR

    Yves 

    4 months ago

    Cackus....How long ago was 7th grade?

  • profile image

    Cackus 

    4 months ago

    7th grade gym class at a new school, I took my contact lenses out caus they tended to get knocked out, I'm trying to read a poster on the wall, squinting a bit and staring.

    She's in my way, I wish she would move so I can read the sign.

    "Stop staring at my t*** you creep!" she yells, loud enough for everyone to hear. She's mad, her friends are mad the teacher called me into his office and I hear words like "harassment" and "inappropriate"

    I'm now the school pariah, groups of guys wait for me after school I get beaten up several times. Girls look at me like I'm hitler. Teachers (all my teachers were women) treat me like scum. My grades drop from straight A's to failing most classes. I never eat lunch at school again

    by the end of the year I'm thinking of suicide, fortunately we move away.

    I never recover.

  • savvydating profile imageAUTHOR

    Yves 

    4 months ago

    Dragon Lily....Some "good" guys who don't ask are not that good. Some of them resent women in that they view her as having all the power, and that she intends to use that power to destroy their lives. Such thinking is skewed, to say the least.

    The good news is that not all guys are users; they want love as much as women, and they value womankind mostly because they had wonderful mothers.

    In other words, life is not that black & white. We have to guard ourselves against becoming overly pessimistic. But yes, dating isn't always easy. That is true.

  • Dragon Lilly profile image

    Dragon Lilly 

    4 months ago

    Yeah, the good guys don't ask and the bad guys get the grl caus they don't care.

    Some bad guys can be so charming when they want to use you and after a while you only see the bad ones caus they are the only ones putting themselves out there while the guys you want aren't even trying. After a while it seems like all the guys are bad cause the good onse are hiding.

    Makes me want to go mgto myself, well not really :P I gues that would be. ggto

  • savvydating profile imageAUTHOR

    Yves 

    4 months ago

    Hi Dragon Lily....There are two sides to the equation, no doubt. It's a shame when the more sensitive guys feel like they have to walk on eggshells around women. And I do feel for guys who get rejected all the time.That being said, I'll never excuse the guy who uses women. Neither do I have any respect for women who do the same thing.

    I truly appreciate your having shared your insight on your brothers. It goes to show that not all men are not the same. We have good, bad and in-between---in all sexes. Nevertheless, these are confusing times due to all the role reversal and mixed messages. Thank you for stopping by to add to the conversation.

    FYI: I'd have to check on the classroom training. I know people in education. Hadn't personally heard if it is that bad, but I'll ask.

  • Dragon Lilly profile image

    Dragon Lilly 

    4 months ago

    Awsum stuff Yves.

    I got three brothers the oldest is just like you say. got a new girl evry day hits on anything with two legs.

    The youngest got all messed up by this chick. I think he's one of those mgto guys now but he's a good guy and just keeps to himself.

    My twin brothers a sweethart but he's so nice he'll never get anyone. He's the smartest and best looking but I don't think he's ever had a GF. He's so afraid of offending a girle he won't even look at them. I blame all those things in school where they give a presentation on how basically every guy is a sexest/rapist and all that hysteria. The one we all had to go in orientation was plan scary, make you think every guy there was out to rape you and that the campus is a war zone and the guys are on the wrong side.

    messed up

  • profile image

    Smarmy2 

    4 months ago

    Kirimi,

    The male female ratio in Kenya has been dropping since 1960. in 2015 it was 98.81 men to 1 women, in 1960 it was 100.61 to 1.

    This doesn't seem like a big ratio but as a population it represents tens of thousand of people.

    It only takes a %2 rise in consumption to double the price of gasoline.

    So it "seems" like women seriously outnumber men but in fact because women live longer there are actually more men under 30 then women.

  • savvydating profile imageAUTHOR

    Yves 

    5 months ago

    Hi Kirimi....Nice to meet you. Thank you for sharing information about your country. Very interesting.

  • Kirimi Gertrude profile image

    Kirimi Gertrude 

    5 months ago from Kenya

    Thought the hunting and gathering mostly for women happens only in my country but i think the population of men to women is low perhaps ratio of 1:3 could say haha

  • savvydating profile imageAUTHOR

    Yves 

    5 months ago

    Mitchy....In most big cities around the world, "hooking up" is not uncommon; consequently, your supposition is incorrect, as are many of your conclusions. Nevertheless, you decided to vent. I've allowed it this time even though I don't agree with most of what you have said here.

  • profile image

    Mitchy Yag 

    5 months ago

    I agree with you on your statement with the free loving 60s and the problems it's brought in relationships.

    With that, male and females are so irresponsible with their own sexual energy it has brought a sharpe decline in relationships. If it's easier to walk away with less resistance why wouldnt You?

    Women may hold the keys to sex, but Men hold the keys to a relationship and commitment. With the free access to sex and the financial risks of divorce why would any sane Man ever commit?

    Look at dating overseas and you will notice that the Western values of hooking up is not present. Men act like Men and Women act like Women. Courtship actually takes place and it's rare you see 1 night stands. In our Western society you can snap your fingers. Our society in the West promotes this type of behavior. Sex in the city, tinder etc.

    Even look at how people hold themselves in public. The obesity rate for both Male and Females is horrific in the West but we think we're entitled to a 10 when we are a 5 at best.

    The issue is plain and simple. It's not one gender that is the problem it's both. It's each individual not holding themselves to a high standard with no self control.

  • savvydating profile imageAUTHOR

    Yves 

    5 months ago

    Hello Cackus....I think the sentence you offered is fine. She might think you're gay, but that doesn't really matter, unless it matters to you. The point is to be direct and to also say something nice, which you have done. Short and sweet is the way to go. Your goal is to make her understand that you will never be available.

    On the other hand, if she really is nice and pretty, why not try dating her? But if you are dead set against dating for the rest of your life, then best to let her go so that she doesn't retain hope that you might have a change of heart.

    Also, I hope that not all MGTOW are angry. Frankly, I get so many vile comments from men, I am forced to delete most of them.

    Hope the conversation goes well. Again, keep it short, polite and direct.

  • profile image

    Cackus 

    5 months ago

    I now have a different problem, I'm MGTOW and need to know how to reject women kindly.

    Taking to other men it's easy to find some that have been truly hurt by women’s ridiculously harsh rejections, often to the point that they never ask a women out again. In fact it was one of these unnecessarily harsh women who started me on the path to MGTOW.

    I don't wish to hurt this women, she seems like a really nice person and we have a lot in common, but I understand that in todays world it's best if men and women just go their own way ( WGTOW?) as the situation is just to toxic.

    I was going to tell her, "You're nice and I think you are really pretty but I've given up on any relationships with women. "

    She's a very attractive young women so I think she won't be to hurt by this as I'm sure she gets plenty of offers.

    Whatever you think about MGTOW you should understand that if all you have to go on is what some angry guys in the midst of redpill rage post on the internet then you have a distorted view of what MGTOW men are (and need to understand that the vast majority of MGTOW men never post or even know what MGTOW is!)

    I have no wish to hurt anyone, I'm just doing what I feel I must to protect myself. It's a sad fact of life in modern america but avoiding women is simply a matter of self preservation.

  • savvydating profile imageAUTHOR

    Yves 

    5 months ago

    ...except, he never really wins. A fantasy life is no life. Dating is not for the faint of heart. I'll give you that, Smarmy. Thanks for reading.

  • profile image

    Smarmy2 

    5 months ago

    " The problem however, is that when the going gets rough, because gatherer guy believes "she has too many expectations that don't match with my idea of fairness," it is all too easy for him to walk away. His feeling is, "I'll go my way and she can go her way." "

    Maybe video games and MGTOW are related.

    Online multi-player games often have "balance" issues meaning one side/player type/group has an unfair advantage. when this happen players often leave and stop playing it.

    Now you have a group of mostly young men who were quite literally raised on the notion of "Is this a fair game or should I stop playing it?" dating and barrage is no way close to fair from his perspective so he quits the game.

    "Why do I have to be the one to take the risk and ask for a date then pay for it" He asks,

    "Why do I have to meet her endless checklists of wants and needs while mine aren't being met?"

    He then goes home and plays a different game, one he has a chance of winning.

  • profile image

    TommyPeters 

    6 months ago

    Women have gotten frustrated because a lot of men are catching on, a lot of women ONLY want equality when it benefits them and people really have no clue on why men approached women back in the day . Men approached because back in the days before feminism and equality men were the main ones with money and disposable income so it made perfect sense for men to approach women for a date because THEY WERE THE ONES WITH THE MONEY FOR THE MOST PART! I mean would you invite a friend out to dinner if you had no money to pay for it? it had nothing to do with being a "hunter" it had everything to do with who had the money which was men 99% of the time. Now back when men had all of the economical and political power and wealth , they had a obligation to take care of women since they had barred them from obtaining wealth and power so approaching, asking out ad paying for dates was one of the responsibilities that men had to shoulder because of the inequality that benefited them mainly .Now that men can have shared the political , social, economical power with women (And that's a good thing) women don't want to share any of the responsibility in dating at all with men , they believe in equality until the dinner check comes, when it comes to approaching, asking out.

  • savvydating profile imageAUTHOR

    Yves 

    6 months ago

    Hi Randin.....Your commented is thoughtful. This piece refers to one type of man only and how some women have enabled them, and why they should stop doing that.

    I do not recommend women be "locked into one dimension and forsake endeavors..." As for compromising your femininity, I have no idea what would do that except working in the adult entertainment industry.

    While being feminine, I am not a "pink" girl. That is why I speak forthrightly about certain types of men, some of whom do live in a "dark shadow."

    But really, my article was meant to refer to changes since the 1970's. Social psychologist indicate that women are much less happy in dating these days. I've merely touched upon this fact.

    As for the blame game, sometimes we have to talk about unpleasant truths. This article would be disingenuous if I merely highlighted the positive. I've left that for other articles I've written.

    Anyway, you have a point, though it is a bit idealistic in this particular case. But I hear you and I am contemplating writing about the frustrations that men experience in dating (in another article).

  • profile image

    Randin 

    6 months ago

    I am a woman and I can say I find this piece to be a disservice to both men and women. I understand your point, but I find that even the most well intentioned message meant to empower one group will take on an unattractive hue when its background has been painted by a broad brush dipped in blame and generalizations of another group.

    I'm not saying some men can't foster the attitude you wrote about. I'm also not saying that some women can't read messages like this to mean they are entitled to utter devotion for the mere fact they are women. In essence, women can just as easily foster the same entitled attitude. Yes, I said it. Please tell me why it's so wrong for men to think they are special for no other reason than being men, yet it came across to me the concept was that women are special simply because they are women? I think we are both different and unique. Therefore, we are both special and should use that to complement each other in a BALANCED and FLUID way. Even if complementing each other was mentioned at the end, articles slanted in a certain direction on this topic tend to generate hostility, further widening the gap between men and women.

    Bad behavior is bad behavior, regardless of whether it is perpetrated by men or women. Men not valuing women, for whatever reason, is bad behavior. Women not valuing men, for whatever reason, is bad behavior.

    It did not escape me that you wrote not all men are like the gatherers you described. What didn't escape me either was that it appeared to come across to assume all women, except doormats in league with gatherers, are perfect as is. And yes, I read your one comment that both men and women are flawed, but that's not the impression I got from the article itself. Just so you know, I would take the same exception if this article had been reversed and women were blamed and men propped up.

    I am absolutely in favor of both men and women valuing themselves and each other. It only stands to reason if you value yourself someone else is going to have a mighty hard time devaluing you. I just don't think the way to send the message to value yourself is to devalue another group in print.

    Instead of focusing the blame on gatherer mentality as the problem for relationship woes, has it ever occurred to you that the real problem, not the solution, is perpetuating the idea that men and women are to be locked into rigid roles based on societal constructs for what is masculine and what is feminine? Would it not be more constructive and productive to acknowledge there are differences, but those differences are not without give and take? Also, before the wheels start turning, I will throw in that I am quite feminine in appearance for societal standards and am versed in what constitutes typical feminine behavioral characteristics. However, that does not mean I will be locked into one dimension and forsake endeavors that might appear to compromise my femininity.

    I am tired of being inundated by messages that have an undercurrent that only adds to the division between men and women based on some notion that if you don't follow the pink and blue paradigm set forth by self-appointed powers that be looking to capitalize on informing you of your shortcomings and how to fix them... you are doomed. They play the blame game, point fingers, and highlight what is negative instead of what is positive. It's a brilliant business model, to say the least. They promote the idea that you have to always be on guard for the "evil other side". Both men and women take turns being the evil one depending on who wrote the article. This article happened to cast men in the dark shadow.

    Men are not the enemy. Women are not the enemy. Reinforcing the idea they are, whether blatantly or subtly, is the enemy.

  • fpherj48 profile image

    Paula 

    6 months ago from Beautiful Upstate New York

    Yves, As well you know, wise lady, if not for our "spunk," we'd not be who, what nor where we are today! I'm feeling better each day, Thanks, my friend. Gotta keep on dancin til the music stops. Peace.

  • savvydating profile imageAUTHOR

    Yves 

    6 months ago

    Hi Paula! Yep. If at first you don;t succeed...

    So nice to see you, girlfriend. I trust you are healing well and still behaving as spunky as ever. Love it!

  • fpherj48 profile image

    Paula 

    6 months ago from Beautiful Upstate New York

    Oh savvy girlfriend! How I love the way you tell it like it is. "Ourselves and our choices!!" Amen! Live, Love, Lose and LEARN!

  • savvydating profile imageAUTHOR

    Yves 

    6 months ago

    Not dictating, James. Am simply letting women know about the different kinds of men out there. I speak from decades of experience. The thing is, worthwhile men who respect womankind actually agree with me. Those who speak badly about women disagree.

    I am not suggesting in this article that all men are bad and all women are good. We are all flawed, but not all of us have serious unresolved issues regarding the opposite sex. Those who do need serious therapy to become more balanced. The common denominator in all of our failed relationships or inability to have a healthy relationship always has to do with ourselves and our choices.

  • profile image

    James168 

    6 months ago

    Who are you to dictate what a man is?

  • savvydating profile imageAUTHOR

    Yves 

    6 months ago

    James, I understand that most men, though not all, who comment here are MGTOW's or some version thereof. I also know that some of these men date while other's have not dated in 15 years or more due to having been rejected by a woman. Consequently, I understand that many of these men fear rejection so much, they are willing to forgo relationships rather than face their fears. They are stuck.

    Anyone who who subscribes to such a narrow philosophy/lifestyle is not a mature adult. Rather, they are like small boys who do not understand the concept of sacrifice and how taking risks allows a person to grow emotionally and to learn more about themselves.

    That being said, I've met a decent amount of men who are unafraid of rejection. They honestly like women and have chosen not let their fear get in the way of attaining their goal of having and ultimately maintaining meaningful relationship with one woman. Such men understand that love involves sacrifice and a give and take on both sides. Good men do not paint all women with one broad negative brush as do immature men.

    When all is said and done, neither men or women can understand the other entirely because we have not walked in their shoes. However, we can understand maturity vs. immaturity.

    If any man comes online to denigrate women, he has no right to my respect. They dish out mostly flawed views which are not well researched and then they wonder why I don't pander to them. The truth is that I understand them all too well, enough to know they have little if anything to offer a woman. Unfortunately, some women have very low self-esteem, so they engage with such men anyway. Women always come away from these relationships emotionally battered. Why? Because they've married or lived with a boy, not a man.

  • profile image

    James168 

    6 months ago

    It appears as though you may understand women, but you don’t care to understand men. Why is that?

  • savvydating profile imageAUTHOR

    Yves 

    7 months ago

    James, Generally speaking, I save my explanations for those who have an actual interest in understanding women.

    " Gatherer" made spiteful comments about women, that is to say, broad speculations which are highly inaccurate. I save my writing energy for those who give a damn, not for those who just want to rant. Truth be told, his comment was not worth publishing, but I accept some of these angry rants to show women what kind of man they need to avoid. Luckily, there are still decent men out there, but Gatherer isn't one of them. He hasn't grown up yet. (Gatherers never do.) I feel sorry for them, but I won't get near them.

    And frankly, if you cannot see what is wrong with his comment, that's a problem---for you and your wife.

  • profile image

    James168 

    7 months ago

    Yves, I am curious why you think gatherer is wrong, and why the ad hominem attack ; I don’t think he cane across as a women hater. Thanks.

  • savvydating profile imageAUTHOR

    Yves 

    7 months ago

    Your assessment is wrong. But it's typical of your average woman hater.

  • profile image

    Gatherer 

    7 months ago

    I read every word of what was written here. I'm left wondering what could have happened in a person's life to make them so unabashedly hateful and disrespectful toward men. There are a few things that stand out that should be addressed.

    The first is the theme through the entire article that men were put on this earth to provide for women. This ancient notion is being renounced in stronger and stronger terms everyday and is, in fact, wrong. The wants, desired, feelings and needs of men are 100% as valuable as that of women on a societal level (or should be), and the only thing that needs matter to an individual man; women's needs being entirely optional. A man's purpose is not to earn a living ("hunting") while the woman stays at home enjoying a much simpler and easier life ("gathering"). His purpose is what he says it is. A wonderful byproduct of equality is men are no longer hitched to the domestic plow but are free to pursue the activities which they find fulfilling. As we now see a very large percentage of men choose to not don the shackles of domestic servitude.

    I took particular exception to, "he is the guy who lets the women come to him. He does not pursue women. He lives solely for his own pleasure. His take is, "If women want equal rights, let her prove herself to me." It's HIS life. He is entitled to live that life anyway he chooses. His value is not determined, either as a man or a member of society, by what he provides to women. It is perfectly fine for a man to be a gatherer. You associate all manner of bad traits to "gatherers", but only if the "gatherer" is a man. If the "gatherer" is a woman then it's perfectly fine for her to lay about expecting men to come to her, not pursuing men and living solely for her pleasure. This is what is known as intellectual dishonesty. We, as a society, are rejecting this notion.

    Second, your entire article is about how women should feel entitled to have their cake and eat it, too. Women should be able to benefit fully from equality and sexual freedom but still sit on the highest of pedestals when it comes to dating. These thoughts are incongruous and are being rejected by society. It seems the real struggle in this article is your struggle with being left behind as dating rituals modernized.

    Next, the statement, "The smart woman does not play hard to get---she is hard to get." She is at home, alone being "hard to get." If that's what she wants then good for her. If that isn't what she wants then she needs to embrace the radical notion that women are not entitled to a lifetime of romance, commitment, attention and support from a man simply because she was born a woman. You are doing absolutely no service whatsoever to women by publishing articles like this. They can either get with the program or get another cat.

    In the same vein, you didn't mention that women need to do a lot of work on themselves in order to be date-able. I can't tell you how many women I come across who have no interests. Let me clarify what that means: lots of women are interested in Facebook, celebrity gossip and shopping, those do not count as interests in my book. When I talk about history, current events, economics, science, technology or any other subject I get blank stares. It's almost a little game I have to play to find out if there is any actual thinking going on inside her head. Now, a quick preface, women will have no interest in or understanding of these subjects but have the strongest opinions; it's absurd, but I swear it's true. Women really need to step up their game.

    On the subject of date-ability: another artifact of the sexual revolution is that women are sexually free (even if men are not) to have as many or as few lovers as they wish. The average woman of today takes full advantage of this by hopping in a new bed with dizzying frequency. Of course, she then comes across the "icing on her cake" and is unable to disconnect her brain (or her Facebook page) from her prior exploits, is an emotional train wreck and views sex as a commodity to be bartered away in exchange for his "good" behavior.

    If a woman want's "commitment" then she needs to 1) be worthy of commitment (just being a female isn't enough), 2) be able to provide something of equal value in exchange for his commitment, and 3) be ready to work to convince a man that she's worth it.

    Why are women frustrated with dating? Who cares.

    ***Hat tip to the comments.*** Great for you guys!!!

  • savvydating profile imageAUTHOR

    Yves 

    7 months ago

    271Chevy...I hadn't read your comment until today. Your analysis of my beliefs is inaccurate, but I do sense your frustration. I've published your comments for others to see, nevertheless.

  • profile image

    Z71Chevy 

    7 months ago

    I guess the clean and concise analysis of your above piece that I had written yesterday was REJECTED from this thread because you are not interested in addressing both sides of the "dating crisis"; but rather, you are firmly entrenched in views that usually demonize men and usually deify women.

  • profile image

    Z71Chevy 

    7 months ago

    Yves, I don't think you're above article could POSSIBLY be any more biased than it is. To be fair, you did try your best to disguise many one-sided opinions, but a SAVVY reader can detect your gender bias with little effort. Since women are "ever the adapters", as you say, perhaps this issue will be resolved when your next article appears. And what man WOULN'T want to be thought of as merely "a great guy...the icing on the cake....but still OPTIONAL", as you stated. WELL, I can tell you quite confidently, that no one, male or female, wants to be thought of as "optional". And I believe that it is this callous, pompous attitude on the part of modern women that has many of these "great/optional/icing-men" running the other way.

    There is also a clear trend of assigning the MAJORITY of the "blame" to good 'ole men. I did notice that you counseled women not to date "a gatherer"; and naturally you advised women to be aware of their innate self-worth, to increase that self-worth through the realization of goals and dreams, and to hold out for a great guy. You also advised women to own up to their mistakes, such as becoming involved with "a gatherer" type of man.

    But that's ABOUT ALL that women need apologize for. From there on out, the blame rests SQUARELY on the shoulders of men alone. It became apparent to me that, in your view, the 1960's was an era of revolution whose excesses could be explained MOSTLY by the folly of MEN; as though women of the time had no "stake in the claim", as though women of the time WEREN'T declaring their independence from the "harsh rule of the white patriarchy" using the vehicles of "sex, drugs, and rock 'n' roll".

    To be clear, I am asserting that you, Yves, are taking a PURELY feministic stance while explaining the roots of our modern dating situation; you are NOT taking a HUMANISTIC, balanced stance. You assert that men need to "step up their game" and "pursue women"; and while you ALSO assert that women need to "step up their game" also, you are mostly calling for women reject "gatherer" types, essentially. And that's FINE AND GOOD.

    But your feminism BLINDS YOU from seeing that EVEN THE "GREAT GUYS" are losing interest in dating modern American women. Even "the great guys" are beginning to see that what feminism ACTUALLY is, is a roadmap for women to "have it all". AGAIN, THAT'S FINE AND GOOD. But from where many modern men are standing, this "have it all" mentality has made women voraciously greedy, and it has ALSO exempted women from taking responsibility for the LARGE role that they have to play in our "dating situation". Feminists have clamored for a certain disguised type of male degredation for decades now, and it SEEMS as though your wish has FINALLY COME TRUE.

    Now, Feminism has aided in breaking up many American families, and has SILENTLY advocated single parent households through its messages that "men aren't REALLY necessary, because women are strong", (sort of like your "icing on the cake" analogy.) Women have been supported in having "x, y and z" rights, but when there is a PROBLEM, it's often seen as a MAN'S fault, not a woman's. And now that women are GRADUATING from Highschool, Colleges and Universities at a much better rate than men, it is ONCE AGAIN "the fault of men"; (never mind gender quotas, never mind all of the PUBLIC SUPPORT agencies and outlets available to women that ARE NOT available to men.) Young American girls are brought up as "entitled, beautiful, brilliant and gifted little goddesses", while American boys are treated to NO SUCH "SPECIAL CLUB". The issues of women and girls COMMAND THE SPOTLIGHT-(like Breast-Cancer Awareness, just an off-the-top example), but issues of men and boys are simply written off in hit pieces like yours as "a man's problem".

    So maybe once you and your "feminist ilk" actually start GIVING A DAMN about men as something other than "the icing on (your perfect) cake", men might start to BELIEVE YOU ARE EVEN WORTH PURSUING.

  • savvydating profile imageAUTHOR

    Yves 

    7 months ago

    Tom...Something tells me your relationships don't last long. In any event, smart, pretty and fit women fall for "successful" losers all the time. My goal is to help women to quit doing that. If he doesn't have a loving heart, it doesn't matter how much money he makes or how good he looks. He still has zero sex-appeal as far as I am concerned.

  • profile image

    Tom hubert 

    7 months ago

    This article was just dandy. But the simplest explanation is the best one. We all want a partner that will prioritize their life in a way that is compatible with our own. Simple as that.

    The only difference here is women are jumping on that bandwagon now. Men have been the earners and career go getters for quite some time now.

    Think about it...

    A person is going to forgo years out of their young lives to pursue a successful career, get a college degree, and build a successful life...only to compromise and be with a mate that doesn't offer them what they desire?

    Are you kidding me?

    Nope. Now, women are experiencing the same issues...

    Get an education, work hard, provide a stable financial life for yourself...then give yourself...to a beer belly having ignoramus???

    Nope.

    Men want what we've always wanted: a pretty, fit, relatively smart woman to have our backs. We don't care how much she makes. Case and point: have you ever seen a beautiful, fit woman working a McDonald's drive through? If so, she wasn't single

  • savvydating profile imageAUTHOR

    Yves 

    9 months ago

    Hi Frank....Lovely to see you. No doubt, divorce is a strain on both men and women. My own mother had an exceptionally hard time of it, financially and emotionally.

    In any event, I do speak from a female perspective, given that is what I know best. But as you may have noticed, this does anger some men. By the way, your two cents are always welcome here. I'm pretty sure your lawyers will never need it. ;)

  • Frank Atanacio profile image

    Frank Atanacio 

    9 months ago from Shelton

    savvy, you are indeed savvy.. So many questions answered and so many new questions derived. Articles like this one puts me on a fence. I agree when you stated that communication is good, but sometimes people not just women take that a step too far... divorce can be a strain on both men and women.. mostly women.. but it affects everything around the couple splitting.. I can go on and add my two cents on everything you talked about.. but I won't I'll keep my two cents... I might need it to pay the lawyers should I ever get a divorce.. Fantastic article

  • savvydating profile imageAUTHOR

    Yves 

    9 months ago

    Hello Pragmatic, in general, divorce does not reward women. Most women have a difficult time making ends meet after a divorce. Gold diggers are not the norm in everyday life. And shame on men who resent paying child support for their own children. You are a father of two daughters. I'm pretty sure you would warn them about men whose motto is "I can get laid just as easily..."

    Furthermore, stating that marriage is dangerous is downright laughable. Have these men never served in a real battle? Women know instinctively that life is more dangerous for her, given all the rape, molestation and other violence that women experience all over the world.

    Anyway, once a man talks about "getting laid easily" I pretty much check out. I have no interest in such men.

    James, you have my answer. I may delete this post after awhile. PairedLife doesn't appreciate it when men speak about women in such a sexually demeaning manner, as did Syntax.

    Syntax, you heard me the first time. By the way, most women allow men to visit their children. Unfortunately, not all men make the time to visit. It would seem you've drunk the MGTOW koolaid. Nevertheless, it's okay for you not to marry, and it's okay for me to warn women about men who use women.

    Believe me, I don't scratch my head over missing men. Lol. People who really know me would find that hilarious. As my fine son would say..."Peace out."

  • profile image

    PragmaticOne 

    9 months ago

    I'm a conservative WASP'y male, still married (only once) with two grown kids (girls). Grew up in the late 60's/early 70's in a comfortable suburban environment in a two-parent household. Your article is revealing and on point, and I must say that I agree with your opinion concerning today's younger men in our society. An increasingly larger percentage of them are just not able/willing to make the commitment necessary to create an environment within which to successfully raise a family. To be sure, some of this is due to the manner in which these young men have been raised and the lack of proper role models. I think the social environment also has a lot to do with this dilemma, meaning all the information that is constantly bombarding our youth through various media sources. It seems to me that the message being conveyed is often not one that supports boys developing into responsible young men who are willing to step up to the plate and do the right thing. Having said all this, I will say that the point of view presented by Syntax Attack has some basis in fact. Whether or not you agree with him, he has a point. Removing some of the bias and injustice in our family court system will go a long way towards restoring faith in the institution of marriage in this country. Divorce should not be seen by young men as a resolution to a problem that is heavily weighted in favor of women.

  • savvydating profile imageAUTHOR

    Yves 

    12 months ago

    Smarmy...Young women are still learning about life and it takes them awhile to know what they want and what is important. Same with young men. Meanwhile, MGTOW focus on money all of the time. Have you never given any thought to how much women sacrifice? Because we do. Listen, this article is not about money. It's about how to avoid men who are incapable of commitment, whether they are gatherers or MGTOW or just plain narcissistic jerks. If a woman wants a lifetime partner, she won't get that with a cynical man who thinks all women care about is money. That's just not true. Besides, even back in the 60's men had to pay child support. Today, some women pay alimony. Meanwhile, the children of said marriages have to trudge back and forth from mom's house to dad's house because they're splitting everything down the middle.

    People need to grow up and realize that sacrifice and risk is part of life.

    Otherwise, we simply remain children. I hear your "warning" but romance and true love isn't dead yet. If it comes to that, women will adopt children and live on their own, making their own money, kind of like many of us do now. Sure, it's wonderful to meet a good man, but if all men turn cynical one day, we'll do without them.

    I've never had that problem of being desperate for a male who acts like an idiot. If he can't act like a respectful adult, I have no interest. Therefore, I am here to teach women how to avoid women-haters and learn how to spot a man who cares and who shows it.

    I take it you guys want guarantees, but that's not real life. Truth is, unless we become stronger, better, and more moral people, then we probably have no business getting married in the first place. If a man or a woman continuously has relationship problems, then the common denominator comes down to who they are and how they treat people. I am sorry, but the views of MGTOW is skewed. That is why they can't sustain a relationship. They point fingers but never look at themselves. Frankly, all the hate speech and the whining is getting old. I've seen the vile things they say about women on their forums. Most of it is trash. If these men are that afraid, then all I can say is, Good Luck. Their lives will be lonely, ultimately, but that's their perogative.

    Do I tell women to clean up their act as well? Yes, I do.

  • savvydating profile imageAUTHOR

    Yves 

    12 months ago

    Although Americans are very generous when it comes to charity, we have developed a culture of me, me, me. I agree that selfishness is a big problem, Sam.

  • profile image

    Sam-e 

    12 months ago

    Yves,

    I see what you are saying. I agree that good, virtuous women can definitely be a catalyst for a men's spiritual and emotional growth and evolution. Unfortunately, in this society, truly virtuous women (and men) are few and far in between.

    I think the real problem for both men and women is our fractured Western society/culture that breeds selfishness and toxic, individualistic narcissism.

  • savvydating profile imageAUTHOR

    Yves 

    12 months ago

    HI Thomas....Thank you for telling me about your friends. They sound like truly decent & giving people. I am surprised that the handsome guy can't get a date. Strange. On the other hand, it's not like a woman is going to knock on his door and announce that she wants to date him.

    What I am saying is that if they never try, the results are obvious. They will remain alone, without the company of women.

    I actually do understand that some men are incredibly shy and sensitive to rejection. No one ever said that love is easy to come by or that good women or men, with whom we are compatible, are standing on every street corner. But if we don't try, we don't get.

    Furthermore. I continue to reject the reasons that MGTOW give for avoiding women. These excuses---are only that. Women are fearful too, mostly of potential violence or cheating.

    Anyway, the most obvious problem here is that MGTOW take the wrong approach. Their expectations are unrealistic. They need to approach dating with a more relaxed attitude. My article: "Savvydating 101" might prove helpful.

    Thanks for checking in, Thomas. Nice seeing you again. :)

  • savvydating profile imageAUTHOR

    Yves 

    13 months ago

    Dear ding tam...I couldn't have said it any better. Thank You and I appreciate you!

  • profile image

    dinh tam 

    13 months ago

    I'll give a thump up to this article.

    I believe the law in America about child support mainly to protect the child. "a gatherer" tends to just have sex, have fun and walk away without taking responsibility. "If you don't want to do the time don't do the crime." if you don't want to pay child support. Don't have sex. (Although, there are not nice woman out there who trapped the man and have kids for child support) so either men or women - before trying to blame this person that person, you should blame yourself first. But don't give up just yet - you still can change to be better and learn from your mistake. This article gave a lot of good points. Great article. Thank you very much :)

  • savvydating profile imageAUTHOR

    Yves 

    13 months ago

    "...armed forces ready to deal violence and death on her behalf."

    How dramatic.

    This isn't North Korea.

    Also, I've spoken of the benefits for men in the comments section before. If you are that interested, Google "Why married men are happier, healthier and live longer lives than non-married men." The trick is in choosing well and taking self-responsibility. If you don't do that, it's on you. I say the same thing to women. Good luck, Jetson.

  • fpherj48 profile image

    Paula 

    13 months ago from Beautiful Upstate New York

    Back at ya, Lady! :) When I grow up, I want to be you! LOL (smile)

  • savvydating profile imageAUTHOR

    Yves 

    13 months ago

    Paula, you and I have seen the good, bad, ugly and every other

    emotion pertaining to life, but we still choose love, in one form or another.

    Thank you for your graciousness. I know that you know where I'm coming from. I appreciate everything you stand for. You're quite a woman!

  • fpherj48 profile image

    Paula 

    13 months ago from Beautiful Upstate New York

    Did I just hear my girlfriend Yves say, "Behavioral Psychologist?" Oh dear, I see George went back and forth with you a few times. It actually turned out to be an interesting conversation.

    Needless to put in print, but of course I agree with your comments. Oh, and Kudos for your sincere & positive efforts at trying to help George see the light (or at least check his perceptions) I'm always proud of you, as well as your intelligence and grace.

    I'll go out on a limb here and say that you certainly gave JG much to contemplate, which I'd bet any amount, he's doing right this minute. Perhaps you have saved another sad fella from a lonely, boring life, without the company of a female.

    You do splendid work, Yves!.........Paula

  • savvydating profile imageAUTHOR

    Yves 

    13 months ago

    No one has any assurances. The "Red Pill" argument is based upon a film which failed to deliver...

    If I chose to live that way, I would hate all men just as you despise all women. No thanks!

    Some decent men exist. If you choose not to be one of them, then God help you. I'm not into Blue or Red pills. Life is more meaningful than that. If you want a counter-argument, look elsewhere. I am not playing that game.

    That being said, you write very well. Some of your verses are like poetry. Perhaps you are more idealistic than you realize. Good luck to you, Jetson.

  • profile image

    Jetson George 

    13 months ago

    Perspective is a curious thing. I'm sure there's some philosophy or psychology 101 topic about whether reality is reality or if perception creates individual reality. Probably drags the spiritualists into it.

    Opinions and emotions are dangerously unreliable things. I'll stick with observable data whose results can be compared. The observable data on the current balance of the sexes is damning.

    "Think happy thoughts" is no way to address the injustice of the current legal system or the society that promotes it. It's also why MGTOW and MRA's call it "The Red Pill", compliments of The Matrix film. One drops the happy thoughts, the desires and just takes a good, long look around at how things are. Yes, it is all very negative. Comes from a lack of much good to be said about it. But the numbers don't lie.

    Here, you take the initiative. I've carried on about the demonstrable reasons why a man would be a fool to enter into a relationship in today's society; all about what's in it for Her and was assurances She has and the lack of the opposite. Offer your counter argument. We can compare the risks, rewards and real world results.

    What is in it for Him and what assurances does He have?

  • savvydating profile imageAUTHOR

    Yves 

    13 months ago

    Sooooo.....I take it you're a glass half empty kind of a guy.

    Seriously, Jetson, you could do with a dose of optimism and perspective. Life can be fun. Cheer up a little. You're an intelligent guy. Why live in misery? It's not a good choice. You may not need a psychiatrist, but a behavioral psychologist could give you some perspective.

  • profile image

    Jetson George 

    13 months ago

    See, that's part of the "frustration". Men are demonstrably oppressed by western society, brutally unequal in the court of law, expected to be the aggressor in courtship yet endlessly demonized for their "toxic masculinity", being labeled creeps and rapists for existing, failing women's 80-20 standards and falling short of the Rule of 6 - 6 figures, 6 feet, 6 pack, 6 inches and only when she turns 35+ does she deign to give that other 80% of men so much as the time of day. Now that her beauty and fertility are about to hit The Wall she decides its time to "settle" for Mr. Good Enough. She has no interest in loving him, only what he provides. It's why she "settled" for him, as a resource.

    And when men express their frustration backed by the cruel facts of society, they are told that they need "psychiatric help". Heaven forbid if data were compared and a rational conclusion deduced from it.

    All MGTOWs want is equality under the law so they can actually AFFORD to take the risk of getting involved with a woman. As for women chasing after men who despise them, that's just the natural result of the 80-20 rule. See Susan Walsh's "Sex and The Pareto Principle" study.

  • savvydating profile imageAUTHOR

    Yves 

    13 months ago

    Jetson, You have summed up the misery of MGTOW. Everything is disastrous and catastrophic in that world. Apparently, they believe women are to blame. It's really sad. I wish more of you would get psychiatric help. I suggest the same for women who continually chase after men who despise women. Hence, my reason for writing this hub. Choose well. That applies to both men and women.

  • profile image

    Jetson George 

    13 months ago

    Cost and risk assessment of a potential relationship does not make the partner a "product". It is the simple question of "If I get involved with this person, what is likely to occur?" Opinions be damned, the cold statistics are brutal enough.

    I've done my homework, feel free to google these numbers up. The divorce rate hovers just below 50%. That's an outright coin toss. Women initiate divorce at an astounding 69%. When she leaves, she will take the house, she will take your children and she will take your future income - possibly for life. She can even force him to pay child support for children that are-not-his. Armed government enforcers will be dispatched to ensure she gets all of that, at gunpoint if need be. If he resists, he will be beaten into submission and thrown in a cage, or killed. When he asks "What's with this raw deal?" he is told that he needs to man-up. And just for some salt in the wound, 7 of 10 suicides are male.

    A modern man looks at this, looks at "her" and asks "What's in it for me?" Her "companionship"? For whatever that's worth. What IS it worth? More and more men examine that list and decide "It's not worth THAT." Heck, if he is fool enough to marry her, he might not get that "companionship" either; know plenty of miserable, celibate married men. You can bet that no armed government enforcers are going to show up if SHE stops providing.

    Of course men are increasingly suicidal. Why not? Once you have abandoned any thought of finding a wife or starting a family, all that's left is creature comforts and entertainment to pass the time until you die. That's not going to inspire a man to engage in society or even spare a kind thought for it. It's not as if he is invested in it at that point. No legacy or next generation for him to care about.

    Yea, it's easy to see a lot of hatred when examining MGTOW. Faced with such prospects, can you blame them? Can you really? They are always being told of THEIR shortcomings, their "inner hatred, unresolved issues and addiction to porn". The girls in their lives are made of so much sugar, spice and everything nice that the men in theirs would rather die alone. Or kill themselves. Then the women ask where have all the good men gone?

    WOMEN are frustrated and confused about men and dating? Makes a man want to laugh all the way to his grave.

  • savvydating profile imageAUTHOR

    Yves 

    13 months ago

    Jetson....While I appreciated your first comment, I cannot agree with this one. First of all, women are not products to assess, and I do not appreciate that MGTOW speaks of women in this demeaning fashion. It is almost as if the MGTOW movement wants society to fail so that you can shout, "See, this is what happens when women demand equal rights." We are all human. None of us are products or animals, and none of us want to be treated as such.

    As for Japan, the men who don't marry there have decided to do so because they have seen their fathers work 18+ hour days, seven days a week because that is how business arrangements are set up in Japan.

    Furthermore, Japanese men generally do not hate women. They have many women friends. What they hate is that Japanese society made their fathers, quite literally, work themselves to death.

    As for the MGTOW movement in the U.S., these are generally men who blame women for their problems. Yet the movement in Japan and the US are not the same. The men who forsake traditional work in Japan are generally effeminate. They like their games and their computers, and the occasional outing with friends. Working like a dog does not appeal to them.

    In the U.S., the MGTOW are vastly different. These men often have good careers, are not metro-sexual, and they almost always despise women for one reason or another. Furthermore, it appears that as time goes on, they tend to become suicidal, not because of women, but because of their inner hatred, unresolved issues and their addiction to porn.

  • profile image

    Jetson George 

    13 months ago

    I've been watching the growing MGTOW movement/philosophy with great interest and agree with a lot they have to say. They see all that cost, risk, stacked courts, suicide rates and worst of all, they remember their fathers and wouldn't wish that on anyone. The odds are so bad that dying alone looks like the preferable alternative.

    Of course, this is a giant, generational time bomb compliments of unfunded social security and the like. Japan is the canary in the coal mine and everyone is watching to see how their economy handles the sharp drop in population as western civilization slowly suicides like "the beautiful ones" in that old giant mouse colony experiment.

    As you note, many point out that because of this male disengagement, "society has a problem". "Society" looks at all those scorned, demonized cisgender males and demands that they "man up" to save society. To sacrifice themselves for everyone else's benefit. From the deep shadows of their browbeaten poverty, disrespect and inequality under the law they whisper back, "No.".

  • savvydating profile imageAUTHOR

    Yves 

    13 months ago

    Interesting. I know full well that women "of a certain age" give up, but that's only because they've already had their marriage with children, and sex simply isn't that big of a deal anymore. But when 29 year old men give up, then society has a problem. One of those problems is fake online "non-relationships. " Thanks for writing in Jetson. Loved the Jetson cartoons, by the way.

  • profile image

    Jetson George 

    13 months ago

    I'll let Aaron Clarey say it all from his own article titled "Yes, Men Do Leave the Market" Just an excerpt.

    But what is becoming a more frequent phenomenon is a question these girls ask;

    "Where are all the guys?"

    I never paid much attention to this, as it has always been the case that men just eschew dance classes, but it wasn't until an older dance student of mine perhaps refined the question a bit and made it more pointed. It wasn't so much "Where are all the guys," as much as it was;

    "I just get the feeling there aren't any men anymore. Not just in dance class, but where are all the men from all the various social activities? They make up half the population, but I can't find any single guys to date. They can't all be married, even my female friends are running into this mysterious disappearance of men. Do they like stop trying after a while and just stay home?"

    And that's when I realized what she was asking.

    "Do you mean, do men give up and don't bother trying to find women any more?" I clarified.

    She said, "Yes. So do they?"

    "Yes" I answered.

    She was somewhat surprised at my response. She said, "so they just give up? They don't go out anymore? Don't they want to find somebody? Anybody?!"

    "Yeah, more or less."

    "That's crazy! How do they ever expect to find anybody?"

    I replied, "Well...they don't."

    Regardless, the point was her reaction surprised me in return to see this was that shocking of a revelation to her. I always thought it was kind of common knowledge, men do indeed give up after a while, but apparently it's not.

  • savvydating profile imageAUTHOR

    Yves 

    13 months ago

    Great observations, Daniel. I agree with you on all counts. As for online dating, it's tricky, in that there is too much emphasis on looks, and it is easy to misread someone's meaning online...

  • profile image

    DanielLetourneau 

    13 months ago

    While I agree that there is room for traditional gender roles in society, we really need to assess and define relationship. Women are not nearly as limited as monogamy in 2017. In the same way men can openly enjoy sex, women are enjoying more freedom. There are many men and women enjoying varied ways to organize relationships. It is true that heterosexual dating is largely a mess right now, and that what you are suggesting, would certainly help. That said, technology's influence on dating is worth more than a cursory glance. It has many ramifications that are making long term committed relationships seem less important. Values shift.

  • savvydating profile imageAUTHOR

    Yves 

    13 months ago

    happycamper....If you'll notice, I did not say that women do as much asking out as men, but they are often rejected by the man after a first date. Also, when it comes to online dating, some women get virtually no interest from men. Furthermore, quite a few women find they are the temporary "stand-in" until the guy finds something "better." That kind of rejection is very hurtful. Because you are not a woman, I understand that you cannot begin to realize the amount of heartache that women go through because of selfish men. (And I am not saying that all men are selfish.) Anywau, this is why I do not always show much sympathy for men who comlain about being rejected. Women are rejected constantly.

  • profile image

    happycamper10 

    13 months ago

    Savvydating, you wrote a couple of weeks ago, "women are rejected just as much as men." You cannot be serious. I have had exactly one woman ask me out in my entire single life - and I accepted. And, I would imagine the men participating in this thread have had similar, lopsided, experiences. There is nowhere near the level of rejection for women, because there is nowhere near the level of asking by women. Although I agree this is changing as men and women become more equal, it is still unquestionably the expectation - and the reality - that men do the asking.

  • savvydating profile imageAUTHOR

    Yves 

    13 months ago

    Thomas, Good advice for Yannick.

    Also, I am sorry to hear about your friend. I hope he overcomes his depression. There is good help out there. Or it could be he just needs to take up an outdoor activity. The vitamin D from the sun does wonders for the body & exercise releases endorphins that make us feel happy.

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