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Why Women Are Frustrated and Confused about Men and Dating

Updated on March 27, 2017
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Yves grew up in Southern and Central California. She attended college in Sonoma County and currently lives in the Great Southwest.

The "Male Gatherer." Not quite what we had in mind when we asked for equal rights.
The "Male Gatherer." Not quite what we had in mind when we asked for equal rights.

Many women are confused and frustrated about men and dating....and they don’t know why. Here is my take on this malaise: At one time, men were the hunters and women were the gatherers. On an intuitive level, this essence is still alive today. However, since the advent of the sixties sexual revolution, American cultural standards have shifted.

Men and women are exhibiting somewhat androgynous behavior. Mind you, not all men and women are embracing a form of androgyny, but many are. Thus, the distinctions between the sexes are blurred. America's sexual revolution has created confusion about the relational roles between male and female.

Consequently, there is a whole lot of friction going on in the world of dating.

For example, in recent decades, women have begun hunting and gathering for the male, so to speak. Traditional roles are going by the wayside. In and of itself, this is not necessarily a bad thing, but it is confusing. Why so? Because our society has inadvertently produced a new male prototype who, because of free love, has become adept at not putting in the time and effort to pursue a woman who truly interests him, the way men used to do.

Such men are convinced that it is perfectly fine for him to be "a gatherer," but the problem is, women are not natural "hunters." Nevertheless, because women are ever the adapters, they have chosen to compensate for the rise of the culturally androgynous male, aka, the "male gatherer." She has now assumed his previous role---that of protector and provider.

Who is the male gatherer? He is the male who claims to have embraced equality, but who actually doesn't respect women all that much. You've come across him. He is the guy who let's the women come to him. He does not pursue women. He is self-centered. His take is, "If women want equality, let her prove herself to me."

Hmmm...

1960s Cultural Movement

The downside of the sexual revolution is that it has discouraged commitment (and romance.)
The downside of the sexual revolution is that it has discouraged commitment (and romance.)

According to Linda J. Waite, the author of The Negative Effects of Cohabitation, "Cohabitating men tend to be less committed to the relationship."

The 1960's cultural movement had good intentions and some positive outcomes. However, the sexual revolution has failed us in the area of love, romance and commitment. Unfortunately, too many American men have morphed into something we did not foresee coming----the "gatherer," who is not adept at committing, pursuing or providing.

Herein lies the crux of the matter.

Feminists had the right idea about wanting more equality, as in equal pay, but they got a little side-tracked by the free love thing. What they didn't realize is that most men are more than happy to accept the "No Strings Attached" philosophy of "free love." His philosophy goes something like this: "If we live together, I will enjoy the convenience of having a quasi-wife, but without any messy responsibilities or financial risk."

The male gatherer is into "low stress" relationships. In the event he should decide a woman with whom he is co-habitating doesn't meet his needs after all, he has no problem leaving. His reasons why?

"She was too much trouble."

"Who needs drama?"

Meanwhile, he takes pleasure in having sex on a regular basis. Gratification with no commitment and no repercussions---that's his motto.

Yet sadly, women offer themselves up to the male gatherer, even though he has lost his instinct for honest romance and true commitment. Courting women isn't part of the gatherers' paradigm. He believes relationships should be easy and uncomplicated. Easy come, easy go. His expectations do not mirror the truth, which is that anything worth having requires time and effort.

Thus, having experienced disappointment in dating for the umpteenth time, many women carry around a perpetual cloud of frustration and anger. Nevertheless, not wanting to appear passive, women continue the hunt. “We have to go after guys," they insist. "If we wait, nothing happens." "What choice do we have?"

Women who feel this way have a point, but their premise is wrong. She has another choice. She can let the man seek her. Here’s the thing. Women actually like having the man pursue her. His effort shows her he has a level of interest. She finds his pursuit of her hot and efficient - sort of like the engine of a BMW. But the gatherer guy....well...he lacks drive. He's a Ford Pinto, or maybe a Volkswagen bus. The easy love thing works for him, but it isn't working for her. Apparently, easy love isn't so easy after all. Unwed mothers who struggle to raise their children without father's know this better than anyone.

Percentage of Single Mothers Who are Hispanic
Percentage of single mothers who are White
Percentage of Single Mothers Who are Black
Percentage of Single Mothers Who are American Indian
42%
25%
67%
52%
Kids Count Data Center

What Needs to Happen

"Free love" has caused so many misunderstandings between men and women, primarily because women are wired for commitment, not just casual sex.
"Free love" has caused so many misunderstandings between men and women, primarily because women are wired for commitment, not just casual sex.

So what's a woman to do? First, she must learn to recognize the gatherer when she sees him. She must then stop throwing herself at his feet. Forever.

Male gatherer guy does not have the inclination or the stamina for true romance women crave. He always leaves women feeling emotionally shortchanged because he is, in fact, emotionally stunted. Chances are high that he didn't have a father to teach him the responsibilities of manhood. In any event, any woman who truly wants an emotionally satisfying relationship must first decide to place more value on her worth, her time, her career and her passions. In so doing, she changes her own perspective about the value of her life. Women must realize that meeting a great guy is icing on the cake. Icing is delicious; it can make a lovely difference---but it is still optional.

The woman has to step up her game as well. She must learn to appreciate her womanhood and everything that being a woman entails, to include embracing her femininity. She doesn't have to become a man to be "equal." We are all equal by virtue of our humanity.

I knew a man who was a former hippie. He was highly educated, but the gatherer/hippie mentality never really left him. Anyway, he told me that he had lived in a commune where he really enjoyed his life. He talked about how fun it was to get naked and paint women's bodies. This, I gathered, was a type of foreplay. He went on to say that the only disagreeable aspect of commune life was that the women were, "Really messed up."

I guess so. Having multiple partners; not knowing who the father of your child is and whether or not your lover(s) even remembered you from the day or night before would make any woman "a mess." The dirty little secret about the "free love" men of the 60's is that they were rampant chauvinists. They made love, smoked pot, quoted Nietzsche, Karl Marx, and existential poetry. They didn't do much else. Meanwhile, the woman cooked, cleaned, scrabbled for food and even made herself available to other lovers at the request of her "main man." You know, equal love and all that. It's no wonder why these women were so screwed up.

Meet the New Boss: Same As the Old Boss

Tired mom.
Tired mom.

The point is, male gatherers of the 1960's sexual revolution got used to the perks of free love. Not hard to comprehend. The problem we have today is that many men are content to view women in the same misogynistic manner as did the hippies of the 1960's. Unfortunately, women are still falling for it. The problem however, is that when the going gets rough because gatherer guy believes "she has too many expectations that don't match with my idea of fairness," then he will give himself permission to walk away. His thought is, "I'll go my way and she can go her way."

To be sure, not all men act that badly, and I am not making that assertion. What I am saying is, our permissive society has created the "male gatherer" who does not understand why love and commitment actually matter. He thinks what matters is his freedom. After all, no one taught him how to respect women. His frustrated mom was probably working all of the time, and good ole' dad was MIA. Maybe his mom even lost the values she once had. Thus, the male gatherer had no positive role models to teach him what it means to become a grown-up. Consequently, he remains self-serving his entire life.

Shifting Focus

Common Reasons Why Men Don't Commit: Rutgers University's National Marriage Project

  • Males can get sex without marriage more easily than in times past
  • Males can enjoy the benefits of having a wife by cohabiting rather than marrying
  • Men want to avoid divorce and its financial risks
  • Men fear that marriage will require too many changes and compromises
  • Males face few social pressures to marry

So naturally, it behooves the woman to shift her focus toward worthwhile men who actually enjoy pursuing a woman, who exhibit patience and caring, and who are willing to ignore the trend that presupposes men and women are exactly the same in every way. Men and women are not exactly the same. Our bodies are different, our brains are wired differently, we communicate differently, we have different mannerisms, and in some cases, we have unique needs. But the male gatherer would have you believe this cannot be true as that would not be fair or equal for him.

Long story short, women must become adept at letting the male gatherer go. In other words, she must learn to pare down the dating field. The smart woman values herself far too much to waste her time on a man who treats her as if she is worthless.

Finally, women must learn to become responsible for all the bad romantic choices she has made. She absolutely must take personal responsibility for her poor decisions; only then will she be able to turn her life around, and thus begin to let go of the anger and frustration she had carried before. She will now be in a position to proactively guide her dating life in a manner that will finally allow her to experience true love and romance---the kind that has purpose, meaning, and staying power.

The smart woman does not play hard to get---she is hard to get. Let me explain. Playing hard to get suggests that a woman feigns disinterest in a man to whom she is attracted. Being hard to get has to do with the psyche of a woman who is selective about the kind of men she chooses to date, in the first place. Once a woman has determined she is interested in someone, she is free to capture his attention. However, she does this with care. She does not rush into a situation without first finding out what she is getting into. She learns to make better choices, always with long term consequences in mind. She becomes a more responsible and thoughtful woman.

Dating: An Art

Dating requires good communication. Some women mistakenly feel they must open up about every single thing that has ever happened to them "because that is only fair and honest." But the truth is, there is no reason for any woman or man to reveal everything about their feelings or their past relationships in the beginning stages of dating. We must open up at our own pace. In so doing, we are respecting our parameters and sense of privacy---and this is as it should be. A secure partner will respect your need to share your life stories at your own pace. In fact, no one really has to reveal anything that isn't relevant to the current situation. On the other hand, excessive secrecy in any individual is a red flag.

A woman who is thoroughly uncomplicated and too eager to please will not attract the love of a man who has the masculine fiber women crave. Her confidence as a woman, combined with her feminine spirit, is the magnet that consistently attracts truly good men her way. The woman who knows how to date well is very much at ease with her femininity. A worthwhile man will readily pursue a woman like her, but he is easily bored with a woman who does not provide him with any challenges whatsoever. A good man isn't looking for a doormat to walk over. The worthwhile man respects a woman who has a backbone. Only gatherer's hate being challenged.

Positive dating also recognizes and appreciates the core differences between men and women. In truth, regardless of our cultural leanings, it's actually quite pleasurable to embrace the distinctions between male and female, rather than constantly fighting against them or worse yet, attempting to act like the opposite gender. Masculine and feminine traits actually complement one another quite nicely---sort of like two pieces of a puzzle.

From now on, let the male gatherer do whatever he wants to do, just so long as he doesn't do it with you. Your responsibility as a woman is to turn your attention toward the man who shows you that he cares---through his actions. Listen to your woman's heart and mind. Only then will you be assured of love that will stand the test of time.

Truly....Yves

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    • agreenworld profile image

      Dawn A. Harden 5 years ago from CT-USA

      Women should not have to chase. It's bad form and usually doesn't work. Men do like to do the chasing.Good job!

    • bryanbaldwin profile image

      bryanbaldwin 5 years ago from Los Angeles

      Bingo!!!! This is a great hub! I've had many conversations with confused men who won't lead the way out of fear it may "offend" her. Be a man!

    • savvydating profile image
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      Yves 5 years ago

      Thank you. I appreciate the thumbs up! If we can get more men to ask women out, the dating world will be a happier place.

    • nighthag profile image

      K.A.E Grove 5 years ago from Australia

      I have to agree, Somewhere along the line the roles got so blurred that its no wonder we are all so confused on how to interact with each other, great write

    • savvydating profile image
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      Yves 5 years ago

      Thank you! In time, I intend to expand upon the principles of masculine and feminine and how they complement one another. It is my goal to chip away at the fear we have adopted over the years, particularly with regard to the "feminine" which many women are mistakenly "tossing overboard."

    • savvydating profile image
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      Yves 5 years ago

      Hi Aaron,

      I've been computerless for a week, thus the delay in getting back to you. At any rate, I appreciate your comment. If you will notice, I had distinguished between playing hard to get and being hard to get. A woman who is hard to get is a woman who will not allow herself to be disrespected - sort of like you... I also stated that a woman is free to show her interest once she has determined that a man is worth her while. Perhaps you read the last paragraphs too quickly. Having said all that, I stand firm in that a woman must retain a bit of mystery. Mystery is not game playing, it is merely realizing that people are wary of those who wear their hearts on their sleeves every second of every day. Also, dropping anyone cold is judgmental. You would do well to look past the insecurity - hers and yours both. I have no doubt that you are sincere and I wish you well in finding a woman who loves you truly.

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      Alice 4 years ago

      Im sick of men I don't pretend to be anything I'm just me and all I attract is older men, chavy men or just men looking for sex I'm soo pissed off and if I do attract a decent guy I accidentally blow it

    • savvydating profile image
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      Yves 4 years ago

      Hi Alice,

      We've all attracted our share of yahoos. However, I take heart in the fact that you have atttracted some decent guys; however, it sounds like you didn't quite know what to do with them once you found them.

      Another thing, when you say you are being "just me" I believe you. But, just maybe there are some signals you are sending about some of the anger and insecurity you are feeling inside that is turning the decent guys off. Rest assured there is hope and you can attract a higher quality man. I know this is true because it has been my consistent experience to attract some really great guys. Mostly, it has to do with your expectations. Also, a common mistake many women make is that they try too hard. I am currently drafting a hub about this matter. I've neglected my hub writing, frankly, and it's time I got back on board so that I can try to help more women who are frustrated...

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      Pavel 4 years ago

      All the girls I ve tried to connect to - rejected me. They were all good looking so I assume they had a way too much choices with choosing a partner that no man cannot imagine...So I ended up with a girl that is not attractive . We are happy together (well , she is happier) but in today's world where girls do nothing but reject a guy who tries to talk to them the only way to avoid lifeltime loneliness . A man cannot afford to "play hard to get" - no matter how attractive he is ! The privelige to be not available is there for women only. We as men have to be thankful for whatever woman that happens to like us ...

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      Yves 4 years ago

      Pavel, I see what you mean, to a degree, because Sociologists have determined that people generally "mate" with others who are of similar attractiveness. Furthermore, most everyone feels good about dating people who are even more attractive than they are. However, I have met men who were not particularly handsome yet because of their confidence, charm, or poise, I found them attractive anyway. So you see, there are opportunities to meet beautiful women, depending upon how you present yourself. Mostly women like men who seem very male or masculine, if you will, as this arouses their feminine instincts.

    • Say Yes To Life profile image

      Yoleen Lucas 3 years ago from Big Island of Hawaii

      SavvyDating – you just got through reading my memoirs of my European tour in 1982. I wonder now if I should have returned shortly afterwards and married a German / Austrian man.

      The reason I wonder this is, Astrid, the woman I’m still in touch with, got married in 1991 to the most wonderful man. He unfortunately died in 2006, but apparently he was careful to provide for her after his death, because she still lives in the same house and has the same job. When we spoke last month, she said she was looking for another man, and that it’s never too late.

      What scares me from going over there now is, I’ve heard German, Austrian, and Swiss men often get mail-order brides from Eastern European countries. I know Americans get mail-order brides, too; I had a co-worker who was one, from the Philippines. When I met her husband, I saw why he needed to get a mail-order bride!

      Foreign cultures often appear charming, but when you delve into them, you can discover not all is sweetness and light. While America has one of the highest divorce rates in the world, there are all sorts of reasons why other countries have lower divorce rates, and they’re not always positive ones.

      What do you think?

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      Yves 3 years ago

      Hi, Say Yes To Life. Frankly, I like European men very much. They have an old world charm about them. But to answer your question, it isn't a good idea to marry anyone you hardly know. It really takes time to know a man, and it is important to observe him in different situations. Men and women always put their best foot forward in dating, which is a good thing, but this politeness does not necessarily reveal their innermost selves. So, my answer is no - I do not think you should have returned to marry the German/Austrian guy. But if you are interested in marriage with a foreigner, and if you prefer younger men, then where there's a will there's a way. You might find a club right where you live (not a bar) that has gatherings for people of different cultures. You could likely find this on Facebook. You could also join an international dating site. Frankly, the only one I trust is eHarmony, but they will allow you to meet men from other countries and you can even choose the age range and specific country. Also, the Europeans like black women, especially Frenchmen. They find them very passionate and sexy. Just don't limit your options, and don't come on too aggressively. You have to maintain a little bit of mystery in the beginning; believe me, it works in your favor.

      I wish you the best of luck in finding a guy who is as full of life as you are! Having said that, you made a good point about things not being all sweetness and light, but that applies anywhere. The main thing is to take your sweet time and do NOT move In with someone you barely know. Ever.

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      lovedoctor926 3 years ago

      Excellent hub. "Frankly, our new male prototype has become adept at not putting in the time and trouble for women." You hit the nail on the head. Most single men these days see a serious relationship or commitment as an obligation. They don't want to give anything, but they expect to receive all the sexual benefits that come after you're in an exclusive relationship. At least this is how I see it and believe me my friend I am quite disappointed myself. I think men these days play too many games and all they are interested in is how many women they can bed, but what can I say? Many women have no dignity and self-respect so since it has become easier for men to get what they want when they want, then what's the point of commitment? this is their mentality. What I really don't understand about men is why they invite you out one or two dates, you have an awesome time, both of you enjoy each other's company but then you don't hear back from him for several weeks or even a month. I've had this happen to me a lot. Again, I think these are all mind games. Personally, I like a man of action, who is decisive and knows what he wants. I think women need to grab a pen and paper and jot down all the qualities and attributes they seek in a man as well as the deal breakers & re-read that list several times daily so it can sink in. Depending on what it is that a woman is looking for she should let the guy know upfront. you can say something along these lines.. I don't mind dating for sometime, but I am looking to get married and have kids in the near future so I'm not looking to casually date forever. Sorry for my ramble. Thanks for sharing your knowledge and wisdom with us.

    • savvydating profile image
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      Yves 3 years ago

      Hi lovedoctor926. Yes indeed, the sooner we recognize "gatherer man" for who he is, the sooner we can avoid him like the plague. I once knew a man who had formerly lived in a commune. (Don't worry - we weren't dating.) Anyway, he relished the free-love thing (needless to say) but he also wondered why "all the women in the commune" were (in his words) "so messed up."

      I said to him, "For crying out loud, if you were having children with men and you didn't even know who the father was or even if he gave a damn, wouldn't you be messed up?" Frankly, the free love thing wasn't working then and it isn't working now. Sure, we all enjoy sexual pleasure - but women also need to know that the guy she's in bed with actually cares about her. In that regard, nothing has changed, as far as women are concerned. Yet there are men, both young AND old, who have a sense of entitlement, and frankly, this bugs me to no end. My way of thinking is, "No, it's the other way around, you prove to me that you're a man, and then we'll see. It is my belief that all women can feel confident about this attitude, provided she is also "stepping up" and acting like a lady. That is not to say we are not aware of our sex appeal; rather, it just means we know that the decision to have a more intimate relationship is under our control. Period. A guy who is really interested will "get that" and he'll act like a gentleman, because he will know he has no choice if he wants to make some progress...

      Now I'm rambling (and by the way, I don't mind a bit when others do the same since we all need to vent) But, just look at the Bachelorette. I see these young men falling all over themselves for a young lady - and even defending her honor and I think to myself. "How sweet. Love and chivalry are still alive and well." And it is. I've experienced it many times.

      I like your suggestion about the list of values. As for announcing on the first date or two, that we are interested in marriage - I wouldn't go there. It might freak a man out, and it would be understandable because it really does take time to get to know if we've met "the one," in most cases. The most I would say is, "I'm not into short term relationships." He'll get the message.

      Thanks for dropping by and leaving your comments. I enjoyed reading them!

    • Say Yes To Life profile image

      Yoleen Lucas 3 years ago from Big Island of Hawaii

      Thanks, SavvyDating! I'll check those options out!

    • DDE profile image

      Devika Primić 3 years ago from Dubrovnik, Croatia

      Women should take care of themselves and let themselves fall into a man's trap. Hold on t o what they have and what is precious to them and should not be giving in all the time. Most guys like fooling around and look at most women as tarts to avoid any decent woman should know when they have had enough of a man and when to let go.

    • savvydating profile image
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      Yves 3 years ago

      Hi DDE. You are right. Basically, women have to take the lead by holding back. A man almost never will. His brain is wired differently, yet he generally respects the woman who can say "No" or "Not so fast."

      Nice to see you and as always, thanks for stopping by!

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      JMH 2 years ago

      I agree with everything PMartin has said, with regards to all the double standards (not saying there isn't any with men) modern men of this day and age have been modelled in the women's own image, they shave their body hair, get spray tans, feminine haircuts, like to gossip about useless trivial things. I'm an Australian male, I've seen this shift in culture and it is driven solely by females. The man is catering more and more to the females needs with regards to physical appearance, what's acceptable in social situations and dating, what to strive for etc. I have nothing against women's rights and laws preventing sexual harassment, what I do have a problem with is your sexist article describing men's entitled mentality when it's the women that have driven the change in men. Men have changed because it's what gets them women. I find women and men balance each other out in regards to relationships, but if women continue to drive this 'change yourself and commit to me' attitude then it throws the whole dating paradigm out of wack. The men become more and more submissive, leaving the women 'unfulfilled' etc, why do you hear about the 'falling for the bad boy' stereotype all the time? Because the 'bad boy' acts like a man, doesn't bend to the females rules and acts on instinct alone, probably too extreme but they're closer to an alpha male than the latte metrosexuals that stroll down the street gossiping about E News.

    • savvydating profile image
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      Yves 2 years ago

      JMH, As I said, "Thus, the distinctions between the sexes are blurred. Our sexual revolution has created confusion about the relational roles between male and female."

      And as an aside, what most people don't know is that the male hippies of the 60's were very sexist.

    • sonfollowers profile image

      sonfollowers 2 years ago from Alpharetta, GA

      Wow, this is great, great advice. All of it. Granted it was not directed at me (I am a guy, after all), but I was in the dating world not too many years ago and I have heard lots of stories from women I dated at the time. Also, I've met guys who are exactly like the gatherers you describe--serial daters, no interest in commitment, "stick around until they get bored and move on" kind of guys.

      At the end of the day, I think it starts with objectifying women. Women are like kleenex--a thing to use briefly and throw away. It's nothing personal. Or intimate, or respectful, or honest (because how many women would fall into it if he was up front about it?). Maybe this generally has something to do with the effects of pornography? Porn is really just video-kleenex. It's the same thing but without a live woman in the room. This coupled with general laziness and an "I am the center of the universe" mentality and I think you end up with the male gatherer. It's very sad and I'm sure for women it's incredibly frustrating.

      I hope that those of us who recognize this trend take it upon ourselves to be laser focused about raising up our male children to be something different. I heard someone say once that being a male isn't the same thing as being a man. This world needs more of the second one.

    • savvydating profile image
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      Yves 2 years ago

      Hello sonfollowers. Thank you for your exceptionally thoughtful response. There is no question that the objectification of women is a big problem in our society, and yes, according to studies, porn is a problem. I appreciate that you understand what I am trying to say. It really is important for us to teach our male children to have greater respect for women....and women also need to be taught to understand their value. You've made an excellent point here! Thank you. I appreciate it.

    • peachpurple profile image

      peachy 2 years ago from Home Sweet Home

      yes, men should be chasing the girls, not the other way round

    • savvydating profile image
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      Yves 2 years ago

      It's sad when the man let's the woman do all the work. How boring is that? Thanks for stopping by, peachpurple.

    • word55 profile image

      Word 23 months ago from Chicago

      There are a lot of good guys out here but a lot of women either overlook them or want to take advantage of them. Women get hung up on looks more so than what the guy is really about in average situations. In other situations, some women are more interested in how much money he makes and can spend on her. In the long run she can lose out for that. The other sad thing is: women have switched places where men used to be. There are more women players now then there used to be. The only relationships that I see working in the future are the down-to-earth spiritual ones where God is at the forefront.

    • savvydating profile image
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      Yves 23 months ago

      Hi word55....Women pretty much feel that men are hung up on looks, so I guess it works both ways. .I've met a handful of women who are materialistic, but overall, most women I know expect to work outside the home and contribute to the marriage financially. That being said, there has been a shift in male-female relationships, which is why I wrote this hub. Things have changed since the 60's, and not all in a good way.

      In any event, I couldn't agree with you more about being down-to-earth and having a spiritual life together. It really is the only way anything works out for the long term. Thank you for commenting!

    • savvydating profile image
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      Yves 23 months ago

      Yes, I know about players and their methods of "chasing." I addressed them in another hub. I do see that men get hung up on the word "chase" in this hub. I also realize that the concept of pursuing a woman, simply because a man is interested and not because he is out for the kill, may seem like an antiquated notion, but it works and women appreciate it. Naturally, I would not expect a man to pursue a woman who isn't interested in him, but keep in mind, she cannot know he is interested unless he acts like it. Furthermore, it's incredibly frustrating for a woman if the guy is too stoic. If he cannot even be bothered to call, text, send smoke signals, anything, then why bother? If he acts like a male gatherer, he probably is one....and that is a turn off for any reasonable, romantic woman. One more thing---women like this hub because they "get" this male gatherer phenomenon all to well, and they are tired of having to chase men.. Furthermore, the male gatherer will leave the minute he "thinks" the going is getting a little bit rough---or is he "thinks" she isn't interested. He simply doesn't have the energy or the interest to find out the truth. Consequently, I believe the woman may as well move on o that she can meet someone who is willing to show her that he cares.

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      IKE 23 months ago

      IT IS INTERESTING REALLY. HOWEVER I DON'T UNDERSTAND WHAT IS THE BENEFIT OF RELATIONSHIP OR MARRIAGE FOR THAT MATTER. I AM TALKING FOR MEN.WHAT IS THE BENEFIT....

    • savvydating profile image
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      Yves 23 months ago

      IKE, What sociologists have found is that marriage actually benefits the man more than the woman. Men who are married report being happier overall, than single men. Furthermore, married men tend to be healthier and earn more money. The reason they are healthier often has to do with the wife, who will remind her husband to have his yearly physical, or to cut down on the habit he seems to be developing of eating three bowls of ice cream instead of one. In other words, she looks out for him. As for making more money, the married man begins to see himself as a provider who is committed to his wife and future children. He begins to understand his responsibility as a father. In short, the state of marriage causes him to be more motivated and less selfish. He becomes more of a "grown-up" instead of someone who simply lives for temporary pleasures. Ultimately, this shift to manhood and commitment is more rewarding because the man feels motivated because he has a wife. He begins to appreciate his role as provider---and that is not to say the woman does not do her part. Often the woman works and takes care of the children and cooks most of the meals and makes sure the wash is done, etc. etc. However, in marriages that fail, at least one party has chosen not to develop a sense of responsibility.toward another.. Their selfishness destroys the marriage, which is intended as a lifelong commitment.

      The reason women push for marriage is because she senses that the quality of the partnership is improved. When you commit your life before friends and family, the idea is that the man is there to stay. Anything else is too tentative and therefore unsatisfying for a woman in the long run. Through the centuries, marriage has been recognized as a stabilizing factor in society, and for the most part, this is still true today. Men benefit from this stability.

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      Yves 23 months ago

      Oh Dan....the point of the hub is to show how male gatherer's believe it is okay to avoid commitment. Nevertheless, society benefits from committed relationships and marriage. Why do you think the Gay community is fighting so hard for this right of marriage that you so ardently wish to throw down the toilet?

      If you continue to show up here with no point other than to disparage love and commitment there will come a time when having you on this blog may not be beneficial to anyone. As to your point about divorced men who are now single and who DO NOT LIVE AS LONG, well, that is because they prefer to be married. Because things went "south" they are now lonely, cynical and unhappy....and yes, their lives are less satisfying---even though they usually keep a good portion of their money.

      In truth, such men do not become Walmart Greeters---but maybe they should. A huge dose of humility would probably do them quite a lot of good. I know because I've had the misfortune of meeting a few of these men. They actually thought I was stupid enough to be bought. I never gave them the chance. Such men are boring, boorish, and self-centered. They simply are not grown ups. If you have chosen to be one of those men, then I can assure you---your time on this blog will be brief. I've let you in as an example for women who wish to know what the male gatherer sounds like. ....sorry, sweetheart.

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      Word 23 months ago from Chicago

      Hans, Women shouldn't be degraded here. This is a place of free speech however, respect should be maintained at all times. A lot of the remarks here appear to be personal, irrelevant and off the point. I am appalled that God is mentioned along with such offensiveness. Of course, all men are not dogs and neither are all women. In order for us to understand each other better we must at least communicate intelligently and with utmost respect. Thank you savvy again for presenting such a good topic to discuss. I don't blame you for not disclosing unnecessary mess. A man should display more class than what I read here today.

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      Yves 23 months ago

      Thank you, word55. I appreciate your input very much. I am glad that you can see why I had to delete his comment. Furthermore, I have moderated my settings. This should help....I hope! ;)

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      Yves 22 months ago

      Briggs, you do not sound like a "male gatherer." The gatherer is someone who is an easy come, easy go kinda guy. He does not take responsibility for his children or for helping to provide or contribute to household expenses. Basically, he provides sex and empty promises, but nothing more.

      It sounds as though you've run into your fair share of "female gatherers." These materialistic women are not worth your time. Just keep in mind, the common denominator is you. How is it that you keep choosing such insincere women? Are you only attracted to the bombshell with the long legs and the large breasts? The point of this article is not to demean. but to guard against dating the wrong type of people. Frankly, "gatherers" are easy to spot. Our job is to avoid them. Not all women are like the one's you've chosen to date. It would be unfortunate for you to give up on having a meaningful relationship with a woman because of all the fears you've listed. I think you're better than that, so you might want to look into developing a keener eye or better intuition, if you will. When all is said and done, the purpose of this article is to warn against "gatherers." I am not throwing all men under the bus, nor should you place all women in the same category. I wish you happiness, whether you remain alone or not.

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      Yoleen Lucas 22 months ago from Big Island of Hawaii

      Women are so quick to cry victim and complain about men, without regarding how they’re contributing to the situation. Sure, there are bad guys out there, but I’ve seen way too many women who blame them for everything. About single mothers – many of them are that way by choice. I know someone who had 7 kids by 7 boyfriends; she kept the first, and gave away the others to foster care. Obviously she didn’t give a rat’s @$$ about the quality of life of those babies. The care home owner I relocated to Seattle with had 3 kids; she bragged about how she raised them all herself, but being the shyster she is, I can see why (her ex-husband was an alcoholic; I can see why, too). I can tell you a bunch of such stories. Suffice it to say, if I had a son, I’d tell him to be REAL careful.

      In the 1970s, Ann Landers ran a poll asking people if they’d marry the same partner if they could choose again. About half the people said yes. One man who did had been married 50 years; he said, “Women had character in those days”. I think a lot of American women have become cynical, and as a result, don’t’ bother to look for the good in men; they just have babies out of wedlock and try to soak men for all they can get. They don’t even give relationships much serious thought.

      There are a lot of good men out there. Women just have to present themselves as good women and seek them out.

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      Yves 22 months ago

      Say Yes, we agree on one thing....and that is that women have to step up their game too!. Hence, one of the reasons for this article. If a woman accepts a man who is nothing more than a sperm donor, with an exciting personality, then her children will suffer. That is the point. You and I agree on that. Consequently, both men and women have to be more discerning. Choosing a mate is not just about how you feel. Sometimes feelings are no more than lust if a man or woman has not honestly learned to build their character. Choosing the right partner means we take the time to observe their actions as well as our own.

      The old adage is true..."Actions speak louder than words." I would only add, "....much louder."

      Thank you for commenting. I believe that honest debate is useful.

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      Yves 21 months ago

      Hello Non de Plume....I thank you for your comment. I see that both men and women are "fed-up" and that is why I advocate a return to an era of chivalry---where the lines of romance were quite distinct. However, given the changes within our modern times, "old fashioned romance" is difficult to achieve.

      I see that men are suspicious of women, and frankly, I am sorry for any woman who chooses to use men for financial gain. However, you should know that most women simply want a man who loves her and who is committed just as men want women who are committed and who will not cheat. In some ways, both male and female are not all that different when it comes to our end goals. We both prefer fidelity..

      Nevertheless, both men and women have to come to terms with their own weaknesses before they can hope to accept another for his/her shortcomings. Long story short, dating is complicated. Personally, I am not happy with with certain changes which have taken women and men down a darker path---and I will not elaborate here. Suffice it to say that a truly good man will praise a woman's successes without feeling threatened. And yes, women still need romance.....as I've said in this article and most of my articles. Consequently, the woman also has to step it up and not act like a man if she wants to attract a man. (Margaret Thatcher is a good example of a strong woman who was also committed)

      Anyway, there is otherwise no point in a man pursuing a woman? You have to understand, de Plume, some women act like men because they have been disrespected as women. Frankly, I believe that this feeling is not helpful, but it exists nevertheless, oftentimes for good reason. Our society has changed and I do not know whether we will ever find our way back. Even I have encountered men who just want to bed me---no strings attached. Those men do not have my respect and I will not engage with them except to point out their misconceptions. If any man wants "easy love" he can always pay a prostitute.....but he will not give him the companionship and respect he craves. Frankly, any man who cares more about his pension than the value of a truly loving mate has some serious problems, and he will end up alone unless he has the money to seek out enough prostitutes. Love does not come with a 100% guarantee. I suggest both men and women "grow up" and stop blaming your problems on someone else.. Become the man or woman you were meant to be and then you will be able to recognize the mate who really is worth your precious time.

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      Yves 20 months ago

      If you don't want commitment and if you are being honest about it with the women you bed, then you are good to go. However, some women don't understand the part where "the guy isn't interested in anything more than short or long term fun without commitment. I am here to teach women how to understand the difference. The women I speak for would be wise not date you, Malcolm. That being said, some women are into fun and only fun. They are apparently OK with the male gatherer. I am simply here to let them know that if they are looking for commitment, the male gatherer is not the way to go.

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      virgo6 18 months ago

      Speaking for 'ordinary" men we are more than happy to pursue if "there is a hint of invitation". I repeat "a hint of invitation". If there isn't then what's the point. Similarly, if the woman we are interested is giving us the runaround (e.g receiving 5 calls from us before, if we are so lucky, initiating one herself) then it is reasonable to assume that she lacks interest or sees us as "friendzone" material only. Life is busy enough with job, health, elderly relatives etc worries for men to have the added burden of getting wound up over a girl who is ultimately not interested. Furthermore, in a dating context if a woman plays the field of suitable suitors it is somehow considered her Darwinian gender prerogative. However, if a guys adopt a similar attitude, then women, as implied in your article, justifiably resent it as being unfair, unchivalrous, re-writing the laws of nature and exploiting feminism. Both women and men have an equal right to choose. If you are a woman and like a guy then give him the signal. If he doesn't respond then take it on the chin (like guys have to do). Or are you saying that women have a biological gender based right not suffer rejection or lack of interest?

      Anyway, I will end by saying that if two people just click then the relationship will develop naturally with both parties feeling secure in it. No need for hoops to jump through!

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      Yves 18 months ago

      Virgo6, I believe a hint of invitation is a good thing. A smile is a hint. I find it to be simple, but effective---and it works both ways. I also believe that both men and women are free to “play the field,” that is, until a couple reaches the point where they both want a monogamous relationship. What I am trying to convey to women is that if she is looking for a committed relationship, there are ways to discover whether he really cares. That being said, there are women who always pursue the man or make it so easy for him to have her---she really loses all sense of who cares about her and who doesn’t. And frankly, so does he. He becomes desensitized to what it means to commit and care for a woman and any children who may come as a result of their union. Consequently, he becomes a gatherer and never a giver.

      Thanks for stopping by.

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      intimateasking 15 months ago

      I personally see things a little differently. I think it's a matter of cultural differences in what women like in men combined with the recent sexual liberation women now have. Women don't appreciate now what they appreciated then. What was considered romantic and sweet then now gets a guy in the soft to eager to please friend Zone. Men aren't stupid. They do what going to get them laid not what's going to get a woman's heart. There use to be a time when you couldn't get one without the other. Since that has changed, so has the other

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      seyhan 14 months ago

      Thanks savvydating, your writing is amazing but also your points are very rational. I printed one out to remind my self as a frustrated 37 yr old single woman.

      I have couple of things to say to the guys who post here.. it is interesting to read what they have to say... Ironic that what most guys prove your points in the article. We now know that most men who took their time to read then to write comment are 'gatherers'.. It is not really men blamed as they put it across, I am sick of coming across articles, even hearing comments from both men and women about failed dating attempts that totally blame women. If you google, browse internet, majority of the articles are 'how to get a man... blah blah steps', 'how to make him love you..' 'how to make him think you..'.. This is so sad and signs of crisis in the whole world. It is degrading to women, 'having a man committing to us' has become a CV skill.. in reality, a man will commit not because women did this, that to him.. but it happens because of him, out of his integrity, character, personal development, and his becoming an adult, of course, when he meets a woman who reciprocates and he is attracted to her. But nowadays, even many women tell you how to manipulate yourself to get a guy like you, so many other variations..

      More importantly, I have a lot of experience of that 'friend zone' both ways.. I have friended men who were attracted to me many times in the past, but guys, be honest with yourselves, even if it hurts you, a woman does not actually put a guy in the friend zone because he is nice, attentive, soft, not a player etc. etc.. quite the opposite, personally, I feel attracted to men who put effort for seeing me, who don't just ask sex, who seem to be thoughtful, generous (I always reciprocate, but the thought of generosity for both genders is attractive). I friend zone them because I am NOT attracted to them since the time I meet them. I know very well that it will never change, they just don't appeal to me to be more than a friend. And I make this clear with them in all the sense, physical and emotional and with words I tell them. What happened is most of these friends became close friends but slowly, I saw that they would become very critical of me, making unfair or a bit cruel remarks to me, just because I realised they feel rejected, especially if they heard I was starting to date someone. To my sadness, these were guys I truly cared and valued and tried to be a good friend, but I realised despite they don't show it and accept my terms, even for more than a year, they do still hope or expect me to love them or to sleep couple of times with them, not sure.. So, I realised that despite liking male company without romance even as I was so close to my own brother growing up and my personality, I get along with me, compared to women, their ego is so so big that a rejection get never forgotten and they really hurt me for that eventually..

      So, my point is, don't deceive yourselves... face it... when a woman friends you, it is not "because you were nice to her, wooed and companied her or you were honest with her" it is because there has been NEVER an attraction from them to you. Attraction is extremely important for most women, we can't just fool around couple of months even if he is a fine looking guy and these guys looked fine really.

      So, keep good attitudes, it is like magic you will see. Many of us are good women in many dimensions, all we need is a man who is really decent, honest, nice, and willing to gradually commit to us. We are looking for company, intimacy, equality.. without stripping him off his finances or blah blah.. These are excuses, I am sorry. You need to face yourselves. Otherwise, not only women are lonely, single and unhappy at this aspect (I am not unhappy at other aspects of my life) but also I believe that crisis of mating in all over the world almost has a cost on you as well. (in the countries with reasonable amount of development and freedom) I really don't believe you can just be happy playing the game, getting the girl into bed, then either getting lost next day or next month or when things eventually get tough in a year.. I think this is tiring, confusing, hard to play especially when people get older.. I cannot believe this type of life is a happy place for you either.

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      Yves 14 months ago

      Hello seyhan. Thank you for commenting. You are correct in saying that many men here have proved my point about "gatherers." Unfortunately, I have had to delete about a third of the comments because they were so disrespectful.

      Thete are some "bad" women out there, but most of us just want to be treated with respect. Most people want that---no matter their gender.

      Frankly, our society has become used to instant gratification. In relationships, real life doesn't work that way.

      Thank you for commenting. You know the truth---that personal responsibility matters! I admire your having spoken up.

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      Usagima 14 months ago

      Hi, I thought I'd offer a counterpoint to some of the posts. I am a guy in that post divorce wasteland where it's easy to get bitter and hateful. I liked being married and still like being a father, the sense of purpose, feeling like we're part of a unit and so on. I'm paying spousal and child support and to be honest the settlement is ok if not great. So many friends have shared the anecdotal story of the guy that got totally fleeced and even one of my work colleagues is living that. Yet still I like the company of women and even now at some point I'd like a longer term relationship (once the dust has settled), so I'm exploring dating and kind of practising how to be single and talk to/be with unattached women. Somewhere along the way it seems I passed from being Joe average to 'a good catch', can't say why beyond I have a good job, I try not to be reckless with people's hearts and I like to be my authentic self. I am not used to getting the attention I am experiencing and there seems to be a strong sense of 'must find a good man' 'I deserve a good man' & 'I expect there to be a choice of them available to me when I'm ready', from the women I meet. Despite stating where I was and a desire to move slow one woman escalated into a relationship really quickly and then started berating me for not 'being ready'. Yes it takes two to tango and I think I was somewhat unrealistic in my expectations. I left, too much drama, and no I'm not going to be berated into commitment. Now I'm sat on my heels wondering how to navigate in this new order. Gathering sounds tempting, make them do the work after the slow drip drip of 'not good enough' that ended in divorce. I suspect I will just withdraw and steer a course away from the fed up & dis enchanted. Honestly, I am not playing part of a game anymore. If we can meet on neutral territory outside of the BS; then maybe I'll ask the girl out, treat her right, she will

      do the same to me and we'll have a great time for however long that lasts.

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      Yves 14 months ago

      Usagima, It seems to me that you are doing everything right. Just know that with women there is a difference between realizing one's worth, because she is actually an authentic woman, and feeling entitled for no particular reason at all.

      If you are authentic, then hold her to the same high standards.

      I'm glad you chimed in. I find your comment refreshing!

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      Yves 14 months ago

      Hello Northern Guy....Your comment was too long to post, but I saved this section for anyone to review if they wish:

      "I stopped looking for dates online, and changed my profile from a well thought out description of who I was to "Meh, stopped looking for me. Message me if you want. Whatever." Strange, but now women who I have been indifferent to seem to be texting me and messaging me. My first instinct is to show appreciation, strike up conversation and be available. But I hold back. I don't text back right away, if at all. Or I do what they do... drop out of conversations suddenly (even rudely) and show up days later with a "hey sup?". I am really really trying hard to understand what women *really* want and respond to these days, and I hate to say it but it really needs to be said: it's true. If you treat women "old school" with attentiveness, respect and niceties, you're doomed."

      I don't agree you're doomed. There is something to be said for being "somewhat reserved" in the beginning, but acting like a jerk only works for women who don't have their head on straight. I know good women exist. I meet them every single day.

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      Yves 12 months ago

      Hello Chris....Your comment was more than twice the size of this article, so I could not print it. The following are a few of your snippets:

      "As a sidenote, in the rare instances where the woman does objectively acknowledge her own faults with their relationship's given dynamic in regard to the masculinity/femininity balance, it's usually not until the male is pulling away as an expression of a desire to end the relationship, in which case any assessment and adjustment on her part isn't really for HIS benefit so much as a last ditch, "panic mode" effort placate him into staying in a relationship that's of benefit to her... a point that men often pick up on, making her reaction one of "too little, too late".

      "All that said, many men are coming to the only possible logical conclusion concerning this imbalance-- that the only way for him to not lose (and end up completely emotionally, psychologically, and physically exhausted, along with potentially financially drained) is to not play-- i.e. eschewing marriage/children…. only engaging in short-term or hook-up relations, etc. while leaving women to their own devices."

      "Instead of telling her in a generic sense to "know their own value" and to not diminish it for the sake of a mate, it really should be framed with a qualifying statement that she MUST have a realistic understanding of what that value actually is before she can determine whether or not a potential mate is actually on her level…."

      "No one wants to be the consolation prize, and he definitely doesn't just want to be her "provider" (i.e. sacrificial utility), while she threw her best away on someone else in her prime. He often doesn't have to settle either, as men tend to hit their prime in their 30's (when they start hitting their professional stride), which often results in them being able to pair off with women 5-10 years younger for casual flings, leaving the 30-YO women with far fewer options."

      (Chris's words, NOT mine.)

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      Juju 11 months ago

      To night I was harassed in a club by a group of men and women because I was not interested in one of them. Men are taught by other women that women who are single are lacking something. They are a incomplete person. Single men are complete people and that is one of the reason they are allowed to enjoy being single but women are unhappy and lonely and incomplete when they are single. Women are desperate to fix this incompleteness by chasing me or being grateful for the attention of any man who shows up. The man I rejected knew I was not interested as we have talked before. He then began laughing and insisting I talk to every unattractive man who looked my way. THIS was with a group of women. The reason so many black women are single mothers is we have a culture that insist black women are not happy unless they have a man and if that mean sharing a man or rotating men then you do what you happen. Look at Steve Harvey.

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      Yves 11 months ago

      I'm sorry you were harassed like that. I am familiar with some of the issues that many (but not all) black women face when it comes to dating and marriage. I am happy to hear that you are choosing to respect your feelings and to rise above. Steve Harvey is trying to help women. He is especially familiar with the problems that black women face. (I was not clear from your message if you are a man or a woman, but in either case, we need to develop our self-respect, and kudos to you for doing that.)

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      Unhappy guu 10 months ago

      I'm 71 and married 50 years' which some say is an accomplishment but I disagree. I'm neither a hunter or a gather I really have no interest in my wife. I don't want a divorce because I would get killed with support payments and end up living in a box under some freeway underpass. My wife chose to run our marriage and I had no input ever. I wasn't happy about it and told her how l felt now that was a mistake. She considered me just another person in the house like a nobody. I then moved to our basement where I still live, she told me she wanted kids and I told her she should find someone else I'm a nobody. So I just kicked back and she did her thing so I wasn't a hunter gatherer nor a provider. If I had to do over i would never get involved with a women again. They are not worth the time and effort.

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      Yves 10 months ago

      That's a sad story, Unhappy guu. I can understand why you are unhappy. I doubt that you would be living in a box under the freeway had you gotten out sooner, but at this juncture, I understand somewhat why you have made the choice to stay. I wish you could find a way out and away from her. That is no way to live.

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      Word 10 months ago from Chicago

      God created woman for man. Both, men and women have made the mistake of choosing to live outside of the boundaries that God ordained for man and woman to coexist. Without the respect for God and perhaps, the purpose that Jesus served for humanity, we as a people are bound to be doomed for destruction. We must go back to Eden and fix what was wronged. We must believe in the fact that God made all humanity and therefore, we owe it to live according to the Word of God. It is that simple. People would be more loving, happier and living longer. Unfortunately, many people date, are in relationships (long and short term) and marry for the wrong reasons. If such people knew how bad things could get then they would not make such bad choices. The time to choose God’s way of life is now and not when things get dire bad. Every man and woman has the purpose to love the other as well as the purpose to serve God so that things will work out for the Good. Read Romans 8:28.

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      Yves 10 months ago

      Thank you, Word55. The scriptures are indeed meant to guide men and women toward wisdom and peace.

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      SmilingDave 7 months ago

      Can you define romance? It seems to be nebulous. An elusive moving target. Do tell more.

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      Yves 7 months ago

      Hello Smiling Dave.....Romance is not an obligation, as in feeling the pressure to buy expensive roses on Valentine's Day. Rather, romance is doing nice things for someone you love simply because you care enough to take the time. For example, if your girlfriend or wife isn't feeling well due to minor cold symptoms, but decides to go to work anyway, a romantic gesture would be to stop by Whole Foods to pick up some fresh chicken soup and to deliver it to her office in person in time for lunch. That is romantic. It's also a good way to make her colleagues jealous. Lol.

      Great question. I should write a hub about it. ;))

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      SmilingDave 7 months ago

      A caring additude. Ok, I can accept that. Could you say that a man revolving around a woman makes them feel safe and secure, so that they can go more into their feminine nature?

      Using the planets, sun, earth, moon, (circular orbit) Haley's Comet (elliptical orbit), can you pick an example, write a story, that demonstrates, describes, the dynamics of the of the feminine psychology, and her need to feel that someone is in orbit around her?

      My goal is to improve my romantic abilities. Romance is a perception of being cared about.

      As a man I need to learn how to project caring, so that it is perceived as romance. This has been a weak point in my past.

      Thank you for your help.

      SmilingDave

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      Yves 7 months ago

      Lol. Well, orbits aside. I'll see what I can come up with, Dave. Tell me. What do you think you are doing wrong? Do you have a quick example?

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      Understanding Equality 7 months ago

      Hello,

      I am a man, have read all your article and find it very interesting. However it bothers me that it is written from point of view that nearly only considers the interests of the women. From a man's perspective today's dating scene is also very complicated. It is sometimes very hard to draw the line between pursuing a woman, being an ass who just won't give up and harassing a women. [btw I absolutely agree that to reach equal rights and social status between both sex's women do not have to become men] Additionally as you pointed out it is very easy to become passive because of the hostile reactions that come with pursuing women today (in a purely gentlemanly way) who do not want to be pursued. However again this is true for both sex's. So I would like to know what your comments may be on this as well as wether you think it more acceptable for women to be gatherers than for men to be gatherers in today's world. I look forward to seeing your answer. Thanks

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      Yves 7 months ago

      Hello Equality....Thanks for reading. No, I do not think it is okay for women to be gatherers. That's pretty much what the article is about. (Are you sure you read it? Lol)

      The reason I say so is because it doesn't work. Once all the dust settles, women still want a man who can who can take charge. If she is the one who always has to initiate everything, keep the family safe, pay all the bills, she will lose respect for the man.

      However, the smart woman can and should do just enough to make the man want to pursue her. She does this by being all woman. Feminine but strong.

      As for the man, he doesn't have to jump through hoops or stand on his head. But he does need to initiate the process and be consistent. That's all I've got for now. ;)

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      Smiling Dave 7 months ago

      My reply....first let me rephrase the question as such,; why do I think romance is not my strong point. My answer is that I am too logic-driven, and come across flat emotionally. An example would be my ex-girlfriends statement that I "live inside my head". Michelle was always telling me my romantic abilities were sub-par.

      A possible second answer to the problem of my romantic prowess may be that I am attracted to and/or attracting the type of women that are not a proper fit. Michelle liked to drink wine,

      I don't drink (don't like it), I would work all day, go over to her house and she would want to be taken out. If I didn't, I wasn't romantic, and we all know how that plays out in the bedroom. Eventually the relationship of a year and a half died.

      I believe you used the word 'romantic' five times in the above article. It's an artsy word to my scientific mind, however it's a concept that is important for a man to understand if he is going to be with a women. I'm not dating a man, so logic dictates I improve my awareness, of what a women wants and needs. Sure, I've been burned by women, but they are the only game in town as far as I'm concerned. So....Savvy what do you think...am I emotionally unavailable ....or....attracting/going after women who aren't a good fit.

      Smiling Dave

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      Yves 7 months ago

      Hi Dave....I do not think you are emotionally unavailable at all. Logic-driven people may come across that way but that does not mean that is who they are inside. In fact, you are romantic or you wouldn't even bother trying. Personally, I think that "Michelle" was the wrong girl for you and I am glad the relationship is over---for your sake. In fact, I find that analytical types are actually very stable and loyal. Those are highly desirable traits in a man. That being said, my experiences with the logic driven guy have been frustrating at times. I tend to be analytical but passionate at the same time. (Bet you didn't know that was possible) but as a woman, my emotional side really tends to take over in relationships. My point is that I have experience in this matter.

      So.....the solution is to be with a woman who is at least a little more understanding of your nature. She must give a little and concede that not all things are wine and roses. Your part is to let her know that you tend to be "analytical" (or whichever word you prefer to use), but that does not mean that you do not have strong feelings. Then you have to do little things, like sending her funny emails once in a while (it is best to use a salutation and a signature). Another easy way to get a woman's attention is to call her "beautiful" or gorgeous." Women love that. In other words, if you can't wrap your mind around the word romantic, then substitute it with the word "sexy." Just be sexy in a respectful way, If you are not sure what that means, get back to me. Good luck, sweet (smiling) Dave

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      Smiling Dave 7 months ago

      Dear Savvy,

      I feel as though I'm on the cusp of an epiphany. Past failures now seem like stepping stones to lead me on a path of a healthy relationship of the woman of my dreams. The dating gurus, that have shaped me towards my goal of a healthy fulfilling relationship have all been men. That was good, but I was still missing a part of the puzzle and decided to read women dating gurus that were written for women to gain some insight. With you I hit the motherload. There are concepts and information in your other writings that have given me insights that should serve me well. It is interesting for example, how many men reacted to the essay (or hub) written above. Men are not the target audience, it's written for a type of women. Yet, it sparked emotions in men that were quite strong. Nothing takes place of a good women. You can do without, but masculine energy is dead energy. To explain myself, right now, I am 100% self reliant, I get the job done. Yet here I am, trying to figure a way to bring a women into my life, and it be good. There's more to life than getting the job done, but masculine energy is all about getting the job accomplished.

      Currently I have taken a Sabbatical from romantic pursuit of women until I have myself 100% ready to bring a woman into my life. The progress has been good, probably need about 3 more months before it's time.

      Your essays are about women looking for men that are capable of the making the women feel safe and secure. Women have antenna, radar, instincts, that are in full force in assessing a mans intention. You are telling women to use their gift. It only makes sense because a man can be dangerous. Women can feel a man's intention if they allow their natural abilities to take over. If the women's instincts tell her to run, she runs. In my case, my lack of emoting, gives me a scary vibe to the women, she pulls back because she is unsure, then I clam up even more, which makes me seem even scarier, which makes her really pull back and the cycle continues. Even though I may really be a great catch, if the women doesn't think I'm 100 % invested in her, if she doesn't feel like I'm invested in her, it's over.

      Comments?

      Smiling Dave

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      Yves 7 months ago

      Thank you for the Motherlode compliment, Smiling Dave. I am glad I can help. My thoughts are that plenty of women will stick around even if you seem only 75% invested. Sometimes less. I am not one of those women, but that's just me.

      Your only job is to learn to be a little bit more emotive. Practice makes perfect. But don't over-do it or you will come off as fake or "trying too hard." As long as you let her know that you really enjoy her company, you should be fine. If you find she is pulling away because you have clammed up, just send her a cute email or text. You could keep it short and sweet: "Good morning, beautiful. I woke up with you on my mind." That's all you have to do to reassure her that you do care and that you can emote. It sounds very simplistic, but doing these tiny things to let her know that you like her can work wonders. When the time comes, you'll do well. It sounds like you are learning all that you can from various sources---and I am always here if you need me.

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      oTuna 7 months ago

      Savvydating, interesting insight into the female side of the dating world. However the old ways of placing the sole responsibility of courting on male shoulders isn't exactly romantically egalitarian either. Most people enjoy being chased, not just women. Its basically free emotional validation with no risk of being rejected and with little or no personal financial cost, and it puts the pursued person in a superior position where they can end the relationship on their terms if they wanted to. Its the safest and most effortless way to date.

      Here is the rub, when a woman is being chased it can end with either a stable and fulfilling relationship, or it can end with a guy getting what he was after and the woman feeling used and not getting what she needed from the encounter. A win and a loss.

      When a guy is being chased it can end with him either being in a stable and fulfilling relationship, or a brief but passionate sexual conquest. Its a win/win scenario.

      In this day and age, it should be no surprise that a lot of men have figured this out and opt to not pursue. Why? Because given the current climate between the sexes, its the most rational way for men to date. It puts him in a context that makes it difficult to paint him as a potential rapist or sex offender, his sexual needs are served, its easy on the pocket book, and he doesn't have to deal with rejection. On top of that if he rejects marriage and children, he can live a very comfortable life with virtually no commitment or legal risk.

      Is this a good thing? I don't think so. The dating scene today is lopsided and chaotic, full of men and women who just want to find someone they can get along with and live as naturally together as men and women are supposed to, without all the gender politics. But it would take a tremendous amount of change to reverse these trends.

      I don't know how wise it would be to suggest that your female readers stay passive in today's dating world, especially if they are looking for a traditionally masculine man. In other words, the gatherers are after a diminishing resource and they have a lot of competition they need to deal with.

      Ladies, I would suggest that if you are in a bit of a rut in your love life, try being a bit more proactive and make your own luck instead of waiting for the perfect guy to land in your lap. I don't think most women are wired to comfortably pursue men the way that men pursue women. But I really would be interested in seeing women develop their own brand of pick-up styles and techniques, tailored to make them as big of a blip as possible on the radars of their desired suitors.

      As an egalitarian I think its ideal that men and women should meet each other half-way in all things as a start, and then slowly compromise into something that fulfills the needs of couple's shared lifestyle. I think we can all agree that finding a mate has gradually gotten far more difficult than it needs to be.

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      Yves 7 months ago

      Thank you for commenting, oTuna. Actually, I do not recommend that women be passive. I've written about this matter in other hubs. I do agree that it is easier for the man if the woman pursues him, but why any woman would even want a man who is too lazy or cowardly to pursue a woman is beyond me. I call them "lazy hunters." For them, it's "easy come, easy go" which is why I tell women to avoid them like the plague.

      In the end, woman who chase after men are always dissatisfied, and (as I've written) is the main reason why women are confused and frustrated about dating. With the male, if a woman chases him, he's going to think, "Sure, why not. If I don't like her, I will still get easy sex." The woman, on the other hand, is thinking that if he dates her, he must like her---which is the reason she dates him. But men do not necessarily have any such feelings in 95 to 99% of cases. He doesn't have to like her a lot to date her.

      On the other hand, if the man has to do the work of pursuing the woman, it usually means he is actually interested in her beyond what she can give him sexually. True, the dating paradigm may have shifted, but until women get a clue, it will never shift back. On the other hand, a smart woman doesn't have to wait for paradigms to change. She works within her own parameters, and she isn't lonely.

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      The God's Honest Truth 7 months ago

      Well i really believe that women should be to Blame why so many of us Good men that are still Single these days since we really have No Reason at all to Blame ourselves. Since it is a Totally Different Time that we live in now really complicates things for many of us Good men that had really Hoped to meet a Good woman to settle down with since Most of the women of today are Nothing at all like the women of the Past were that really made it happen back then. Today many women that have a Career now have become so very high maintenance, independent, selfish, spoiled, greedy, picky, and very money hungry since they will Only want the Best of all and will Never settle for Less. Most women unfortunately want a man with Mega Bucks now which is very sad how the women have Changed since they really want men to keep spending Money on them every chance they get. And many women that have a Career today are more Committed to their jobs instead of their families which has caused many Divorces already do to their Greed And Selfishness since many of these women have also Cheated as well. I had it happen to me which i was a very Good husband that was always Faithful to my wife to the very end which i Loved her very much and very Committed to her as well which i always wanted children too which Never happened. Now Single And Alone again for me makes me very Sad when i see so many others that were very Blessed to be married with their families. Wish that i had been born many years sooner when the Good old fashioned women were around which it Definitely Would've been much easier finding Love in those days the way our family members had it. I know friends of mine that are going through the same thing today as well. Peace.

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      Yves 7 months ago

      Hello Honest Truth....It sounds like your divorce through you for a loop. I am sorry things didn't work out. Needless to say, it is not appropriate to paint women with such a broad brush and in such a negative light. The world is full of good people and bad people, of both sexes. If you want love in your life you will have to become a more positive person. You would do well to let go of the cynicism sooner rather than later; it is not doing you any favors. You see, it is possible to find happiness---even in this day and age. Right now, your responsibility is to work on yourself. I wish you well.

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      Lucien Cross 7 months ago

      Interesting opinion piece.

      Something stuck out to me though...

      We had a sexual revolution in a dimorphic species where the social construct between men and women was cast aside.

      Women stated their intentions/sentiments via feminism; fair enough.

      Without getting into historic and ongoing effects of the ideology and it's impact on society, one thing is patently clear and that is

      The sexual revolution for women may be over but it hasn't happened yet for men.

      So perhaps men and women need to be honest, brutally honest, about what they want (if anything) and deliberately consider what the other party has to say.

      Crazy... I know.

      the men NOW... These gatherers, are (at least 60% of them) the cultural byproduct of feminism's impact on society. This is good because it shows men and women are capable of change if that's what they want.

      Either way... Bed. Made. Lie. Or make a new bed.

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      Jeremiah 6 months ago

      GLAD I'M SINGLE! lol

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      Yves 6 months ago

      Hello Lucien....Feminism and the 60's sexual revolution may be intertwined, but they are not exactly the same. Feminism asks for equal pay and opportunity, which is positive. Radical feminism, which I do not condone, asks for the dismantling of the family. Given the rise of poverty among single women and the confusion of males who have no fathers, you can see where that idea has gotten us. Pretty much, nowhere.

      The Sexual Revolution made sex more permissive for women, particularly with the advent of The Pill. Where men get tripped up is in forgetting that they (men) have always had the permission to be sexual with whomever they please whereas women had not. Consequently, there seems to be a huge resentment toward women for initiating this change, but at the same time, men like having sex with women without having to pay a prostitute or go over to the "other side of town." It takes two to tango, so men need to take as much responsibility as women for the negative results of sexual permissiveness. That being said, only women can effect this change. Men will not do it. They are not wired to reject easy sex. Just saying. ;)

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      Suzanne Day 6 months ago from Melbourne, Victoria, Australia

      Hi,

      This hub has been very interesting to read!

      As a youngster, I was never taught anything about how to go about dating, relationships, marriage etc. So I've had to learn the hard way by prettymuch making every mistake you can make.

      I completely understand most of the men commenting on here, because I feel exactly the same way towards the opposite sex on many occasions. Many of them can be completely unrealistic, narcissistic, entitled manchildren who are total users and even some of the most horrible ones think they are the best thing on the planet, treating women like vaginal ATMs and breaking hearts without giving it a second thought.

      I'm here to tell the commenting men that since I have my own assets, I'd look to have him sign a pre-nup or nup and I'm happy to do one too. That way, I wouldn't be scared of an ex taking my hard earned and putting me in poverty etc.

      As for being hurt by gatherers, they abound and breed like rabbits in our very disturbing society, but at some point you say to yourself, shall I keep going or shall I give up on the opposite sex? If you've had nothing but bad experiences, then of course, giving up looks like a logical conclusion - but since you've had to have bad experiences in the first place, the hope is still within and it feels quite sad and disappointing to have to deny ourselves what we want.

      The only real reason you need to spend time considering giving up is because you don't want to. Otherwise you would have just done it already, naturally, without stressing.

      The trick is, I think, to realise that doing the same thing over and over will NOT yield a different result. You have patterns in who you are choosing and how you play it etc and these patterns interact with the predictable patterns of the typical other you keep choosing and so on. Shake it up. Ask yourself what would make you feel safe with the opposite sex so you could open yourself to a relationship (eg prenup, nup - legally conditional wedding, not having children, locking away money into super, only dating financially secure women and so on - I've only mentioned financial stuff here, but there's other points to consider). These safety boundaries become your deal breakers in future.

      I haven't given up hope yet, because I don't want to and feel very sad if I think I won't have a relationship ever again. My previous relationships have almost forced everyone around me to convince me to take that logical conclusion and stop doing it as they think the price is too high for me, but to do so would be denying myself what I truly desire and would mean giving up on one of my dreams (and I've already given up on a bunch of others - which were far easier to let go of).

      I still think I'm learning...and definitely trying something new is a good idea, as well as controlling what makes you feel safe to try again. Just make sure the safety boundaries are pleasantly communicated to people a little way in without making it into a hammer punch on the first date (seen people make THAT mistake before!)

      Best of luck to all.

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      Yves 6 months ago

      Thank you for commenting, Suzanne. I appreciate everything you have to say. I think that pre-nups are a good idea for anyone who is wealthy enough to have to think about such things. As for giving up, I agree that there is no reason to do so. As they say, knowledge is wisdom. The more we understand, the less time we waste on men or women who are not worthwhile. In my experience, they always give themselves away pretty early in the game. Consequently, we don't have to have our hearts broken all of the time. That I can say with full confidence!

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      Nobody 6 months ago

      I learned more from the comment section than the article itself on why my decision as a woman to be permanently single and celibate is the right decision. Thanks, "men!"

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      Yves 6 months ago

      Hello Clyde... I graciously took quite a bit of my time to respond to you three times (previously), but your posts were way too long for me to keep on this site permanently. Rather than berate me, a "Thank you" on your part would have been more appropriate. In any event, as you stated, you have all my responses. I am sorry that you are such an unhappy man. Only you can change that. Perhaps a good psychologist can help you to address your anger toward women. I will not post any more of your angry comments and I will delete this post after a time. Good luck to you.

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      Batphink Reynolds 6 months ago

      That's right do what you modern women make a past time of doing blaming men for all your shortcomings.You wanted equality you got it in fact more if the truth be known.I've seen more women with top ranked jobs in my last few years than ever and IF they earned it by not sleeping around then good for them.

      However women have become men in dresses or pants more often,so now days there are so FEW ladies.If you have to ask what that means then you are NOT a lady,real men WANT ladies,Ive not met one since I started dating years back.Why do I think she's out there....?Am I deluded?

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      Yves 6 months ago

      Well Batphink..... All I can tell you is that I am a lady, but you are no gentleman.

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      Yoleen Lucas 6 months ago from Big Island of Hawaii

      When discussing pornography, people usually refer to movies made for men. They almost never mention confession magazine stories written for women. I used to read confession magazines; they did me no harm. As for girlie magazines, I personally have no problem with Playboy. I used to read it with one of my boyfriends.

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      Yves 6 months ago

      Pornography is found in adult movies, explicit magazines and violent video games. It is big business, which has become even wealthier by featuring more and more violence against women. Rape scenes are all the rage these days.

      Women who star in these films have constant issues with STD's, drug addiction and mental illness. They sign contracts, without knowing what they are getting into. For example, a producer might introduce a scene in which the actress is cut with a knife. It's a dangerous business.

      Confession magazine was fairly benign back in the day. Nowadays, I worry that their covers feature young girls who look a little too "sexy."

      As for "reading" Playboy magazine with a boyfriend, I do not recommend it. These guys supposedly appreciate the articles, but I dare say, they can find useful information in other places, which do not feature busty, naked women.

      If I walked into a man's house and he had a Playboy magazine on the coffee table, I would walk right out. I can't abide a man who makes excuses for chauvinistic or stupid behavior. Yoleen, your experiences with men have not been all that good. It probably had to do with the violent atmosphere you grew up in. My point? It is harmful to our society to cheapen the sex act by desensitizing men to violence. Women who defend porn are extremely naive about the seedy world of big business pornography. They have no idea how badly these women are treated, many of whom come from abusive backgrounds and who have no self esteem to speak of.

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      Yoleen Lucas 6 months ago from Big Island of Hawaii

      I looked at some articles about Playboy bunnies. In 1963, Gloria Steinmann chose to become one, to write an article about the experience. It is called, "A Bunny's Tale", and exposes how the women are financially exploited through kickbacks, and in spite of the no-touch rules, sexual harassment is rampant. Far more recently, a Playboy bunny told about how the Hefner mansion is 40 years out of date, and is downright filthy, with people contracting infections from the swimming pool. Hefner has nightly parties in his bedroom where several young ladies must join him for sex. Though they show their devotion when he's looking, they do their best to stay under the radar, so they're not elected.

      I wonder if actors in Erotic movies are abused. I heard about the extreme misfortunes of Kim Bassinger. She came out of making"9 1/2 Weeks" feeling like a rape victim. She verbally agreed to act in "Boxing Helena", then backed out when she discovered the gruesome plot. She was sued big time, even though she hadn't signed anything. (By the way, the movie bombed.)

      I haven't read anything negative about Dakota Johnson in "Fifty Shades of Grey". Though much was inaccurate in the characterization and plot line, I thought the movie was actually better than the book. Dakota Johnson still has two more movies to make in the series. She may be waiting until she collects her money to say anything, but if working conditions were that disgusting, surely the money wouldn't be worth it???

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      Khalian 5 months ago

      Ah hypergamy at its finest. I have seen this instinct play out so much in my life and this article reeks of it.

      So effectively what you want is to have equality in work (e.g equal pay, opportunities etc) but firm traditional gender roles in dating?

      So when true equality knocks on the door, women start cowering behind hypergamy to assert - we want LTR material guys and they should initiate approaching etc because that is what males are supposed to do. The fact is the vast majority of female dom is not LTR material themselves.

      Women do not live up to the cost benefit analysis for most men. In a marriage, its almost always that the male spends more resources for the female (which by the way is hard to acquire) and get sex (as if that is a favor that women 'give' away) and emotional support (which is actually bilateral, women get emotional support too). Besides with the atrocious divorce arrangements where emotional support from women is gone and the financial support from men continues for years. Tell me how any of these arrangements are sound economics for men?

      All human beings respond to incentives, that is human nature. The fact that men actually shun marriage or commitment is due to the fact that the incentives for actually doing so are low and the rewards are very high.

      P.S - I am all in favor of women getting better jobs and education. Handicapping an entire sex is detrimental to society. But asking for selective privilege is morally bankrupt behavior to me.

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      Yves 5 months ago

      And you are qualified to tell me what is moral because why? You sound like someone who doesn't like women much. What incentive would any decent woman have to feel motivated to be with you? Certainly not your money.

      Listen, if you can't be bothered to open doors and such, and if you are so interested in your money, then by all means, keep your money. You'll need it once you are old, sick and alone. Good luck finding a nurse who will put up with your demands.

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      Suzanne Day 5 months ago

      Just came back to read some more comments. This hub is quite fascinating!

      Most of the men aren't getting it.

      Women are PEOPLE too. This means, if you wouldn't ask your best friend or mate to be your servant and adore all of your crap, you can't expect a woman to, either.

      She should not have to slather on about how wonderful you are and pick up after you when what you say or think is utter tosh. If you have truly intelligent insights and qualities worth adoring, she will stick around and show her genuine interest, without it having to be chore for either sex, because you would be a naturally nice and interesting person.

      Imagine being friends with someone really stupid and they just don't get you and expect you to cater to their giant ego. This is what women can sometimes feel like when trying to have a relationship with a man. I'm sure men have felt that way too in their relationships with selfish women.

      Women are not slaves. They are not property. You have to earn a wife or girlfriend or whatever with your people qualities, just like you would with any friend in your life. Relationships which work are not about a domestic servant/sex slave partnered with a warrior. They work because both sexes are equally important and have great qualities and a friendship they share with each other.

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      Yves 5 months ago

      Suzanne Day...You hit the nail on the head. Thank you for understanding the gist of my message and for contributing your observations.

      Frankly, I am appalled that some men are apparently so unhappy about women daring to ask for equal pay and opportunity, they have somehow decided that her "gall" somehow cancels out the need for them to act like decent human beings.

      This is why I write---to help women choose partners wisely. The way some of these men think reminds me of the way men have been taught to believe in middle eastern countries. Disgusting!

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      Suzanne Day 5 months ago

      Yes, I see this phenomenan all the time around me. Men still haven't come to grips with equality much. Having said all that, there are female equivalents of these around a lot too - the type that bleeds men dry, so quite frankly, both sexes are right to be a bit frightened of what could happen. But we all know there are quality men and women not like this, hence the search continues...

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      Yves 5 months ago

      No doubt. This is why I tell women that they must step up their game as well. Otherwise, they really have only themselves to blame for all their disappointing relationships. That being said, sometimes the best of us can be fooled. Heartbreak cannot always be avoided.

      But as you know, if our only focus is on avoiding what might happen if we try, then our lives will be rather sad and pathetic. That being said, we also have to develop wisdom. That comes as we exercise higher standards for ourselves. Honestly, it isn't as difficult as some of my "gatherer" friends seem to believe. ;)

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      Yves 5 months ago

      Cackus, I am sorry that you have such contempt, even hatred toward women. Many men who have commented here have apparently chosen to believe that I have cast all men as male gatherers.

      I have not. The male gatherer is someone who uses women, but does not pursue them, not unlike the male hippies of the 60's. There are many types of men. The gatherer is only one type. Men who work hard but still hate women are mysogynistic. Different label.

      The gatherer let's the woman do most of the work, in and out of the home, and does not have much money to speak of.

      I realize many modern men have no good male role models. That is why male gatherers abound, unfortunately.

      Have you thought of seeking therapy? Your anger isn't doing anybody any favors, least of all yourself.

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      Mitch 4 months ago

      Why would any successful man in his right mind ever want to date a Westernized Women let alone get into a relationship with them? It's not worth it in any aspect whatsoever.

      I will continue to tell the younger generation to look at closely the divorce statistics, how the courts treat Men and make their own logical conclusions. But the proof is in the pudding and men are waking up and walking away from the Westernized Women and it's about time!

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      Yves 4 months ago

      Dear Mitch,

      Are you from the "West?" If not, I have nothing more to say. If you are an American, I should not have to answer this question. Believe it or not, worthwhile men are not interested in women who might possibly be interested in you.

      Thanks for sharing.

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      John 4 months ago

      The ones who are frustrated should change if they don't want to be frustrated. This man is neither hunting nor gathering, and I'm not frustrated one bit.

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      Yves 4 months ago

      John....I believe that is what I said. As for the intent behind your second sentence, good luck. You'll be frustrated soon enough.

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      MJH 4 months ago

      I think the women and the men here are essentially saying the same things and we're all coming from the same place--our trust has been broken and we don't feel appreciated for who we are. I guess confused gender roles contribute to this, but I think its impact is overblown. To me, people are just more narcissistic, both men and women, now than they've ever been. Thus establishing and maintaining a long term relationship with a true give and take is more difficult, whether it be with a mate or just a friend. I think women and men are making the same convenient mistake--blaming the other side instead of honest self-reflection.

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      Yves 4 months ago

      MJH, I have to agree. You are wise to state that we all need honest self reflection. Thank you for your insight.

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      Yves 4 months ago

      Alex...I do not know where you got the idea that women have to choose between the "traditional" wife and mother and a career. Maybe if men could have babies they might be able to conceive of another option. This isn't the Middle East, where women are men's property. Get over yourself. Furthermore, nobody cares if you decide to "go your own way." Thanks for commenting.

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      Yves 4 months ago

      David, your comment was too long. Here is part of it:

      "“….I live in an area where a bunch of snobby chicks live who have it all and I can give nothing to make them happy they will just take me for granted or use me. I wont put up with that. I get along with everyone I meet. The girls I am friends with their parents asked me why am I not dating them. Guess what they arent interested. I keep being told what a great guy I am than girls go do what they want. Yes I am not perfect.

      Whats wrong with going to another country to find a wife?

      Whats wrong with the dirty truth that not everyone finds love?

      Maybe I am too different from the social norm because I like to leave my bubble everyday?

      You obviously dont understand what its like pursuing women…...

      I am sorry if I hurt your feelings because women like to argue with emotions…..”.

      David, you have not hurt my feelings. The Terms of Service does not allow for vulgarity---nor do I. It is possible to get one's point across without using foul language. At this point, you are rambling and repeating yourself. I get it. You are unhappy and frustrated. Like I said, please seek counseling.

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      Alex Th 4 months ago

      If you will indulge me further, I would like to comment one more time. You mentioned that “women weren’t the property of men” in response to my other comment. I never once said that, nor did I even allude to it. You told me to get over myself. I never said or gave off the impression that I somehow thought highly of myself. In fact I even mentioned how I wasn’t “saying I was even one of the good ones” You also said that no one would mind if I were to indeed go my own way. I didn’t say I was a mgtow, but allow me to bring your attention to something. The Japanese herbivore men, while for a different reason, have gone there own way. The Japanese are currently experiencing a shrinking society, due to about half the men(actually slightly higher, last survey I read) not wanting anything to do with women. Look it up, its out there. So while it is true that if I indeed do shun marriage and women, that “no one would mind” but if enough men catch on to this(and there is a lot more of that mindset than you would think, I was shocked at how many of the men I knew had similar beliefs) society will indeed mind.

      I think you misunderstood my point of choosing between traditionalism and feminism. Women on average want the same rights as men and to be equal, without shouldering equal responsibility for those rights, that is what I meant. For example, only men are required to sign up for the draft(I realize that currently no one is drafted) or we cant register to vote or get federal funding for college. How is that equal? Its not. There are myriads of other examples I could bring out but I think you get the idea.

      Last observation I want to make. I have read through a myriad of other comments and your responses to them. Generally, you gave insightful comments and suggestions and or rebuttals if needed. You even post all of the negative responses (provided they are not vulgar) which most blogs of this caliber would not do. For a few minutes, I wondered how you completely missed what I said, and said I said things I did not say. I reread my lengthy comment a few times to be sure I didn’t come off as an angry upset dude, just spouting off, and I don’t think it reads that way, I surely did not mean for it too, if that is how you read it. You hit me as a very intelligent woman, with some good insight to share. Might I suggest I struck a nerve? My post was just about my experiences and how that has molded and shaped my view on women and dating etc. I didn’t even know what the red pill and mgtow and all that stuff was until about a year ago when I stumbled across a sandman video on YouTube. But that is irrelevant. Perhaps there was just enough irrefutable truth in my comment (or I am just crazy who knows lol) that really couldn’t be argued against? Maybe you know how toxic the system currently is for us men and don’t want to admit it?

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      Yves 4 months ago

      Alex, I believe it was the following comment which "struck a nerve," to use your phrase:

      "This is the main point I want to drive home. You ladies seem to want to pick the pros of feminism and the pros of traditionalism. Either you are a feminist with a career and equality and all that, or you learn how to be a traditional wife and mother. Quit demanding both. Get over yourselves, you are no more important than we are. You are not a treasure to be found, or a heart to be won. Good men(and I am not necessarily saying I am one) rarely ask out women these days because generally speaking you all have failed the most basic of cost\benefit analysis’s."

      Alex, I will address the above paragraph one day. It could be that I was pressed for time when I commented on your first comment. I thank you for elaborating further and I will get back to you.

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      Yves 4 months ago

      Alex, First of all, you are not a Christian. No Christian man would have such a low opinion of women.

      You also said this about my article: "Also you mentioned how women were testing men and they failed “almost constantly."

      My article does not say that.

      As for cost-benefit analysis, women are neither things, products, nor business ventures. If you cannot understand that marriage is a partnership, then I don't know what else to say to you. The truth of the matter is that most women do most of the work inside the home; they spend more time caring for the children; they almost always buy and prepare meals. They also look after the budget and pay the bills. The list goes on and on. Furthermore, they usually work outside of the home---since most households need two incomes. In other words, except when they are asleep, they are often tending to something, if they are married and have children.

      Marriage is a partnership. Have you considered that in your years of dating, you may have come off as condescending or even as a jerk? I have to say, despite the "nice" comments you made about me, one is still left with the impression that you do not like women at all. That's a big turn-off. That and this whole "cost-benefit analysis" mentality.

      I asked my son (who enjoys dating) about this MGTOW thing. He said that everyone he knows loves dating and that they are "all about dating." The thing you described to him sounds foreign and regrettable, as far as he is concerned. I feel the same way.

      Long story short, if some men want to avoid women, maybe that is a good thing for women who want to date. She would just as soon not date someone who thinks so little of womankind.

      On the other hand, (and you may or may not be an exception) this also means that the porn industry will become stronger than ever. Given their treatment of women, that is a huge negative for our society.

      As someone once said, if you want to find a good woman, you have to become a better man. I have met good men and good women throughout my life. Both sexes have good people and bad people.

      The question to ask yourself, Alex, is "Why are you attracting the bad?"

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      Yves 4 months ago

      David, No foul language is allowed. I just deleted another of your comments. For someone who wants to study medicine, you spend a whole lot of time on the Internet.

      In any event, Nothing in your life will change until you decide to become a man. Right now, you seem to be stuck in junior high. Time to grow up, unless you want to be lonely forever.

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      David2288 4 months ago

      To be honest theirs no point in trying to show you anymore if you don't believe me. I'll leave your comment section alone if thats what you want. I cant afford dates. My experience in the area where I live is that if you don't have somthing to provide that is unique that another man can't provide than you can't get anything. Paying for gas and insurance everything else is hard enough. I have goals I will work for and work as hard as I can to achieve and that is med school.

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      Yves 4 months ago

      A lot of people pay for their own gas and insurance, and much, much more. Stop whining and work more. Grow up.

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      Yves 4 months ago

      What I am trying to convey, David, is that life isn't always what we deem fair. None of that matters. It is how we handle the things that are thrown our way that really determines our character. It is also how we do whatever we can to lessen chaos, for there are some things we can do. The rest is life living itself. We have to learn to handle life. Very few men and women understand this. Why be common? If you choose, you can do do much better.

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      David2288 4 months ago

      No matter how many women that reject me. I want them all to be happy. They deserve to be happy and I wish I could be that man that could give them that happiness. Its cool if you choose someone else.

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      David2288 4 months ago

      What does being a better human being mean to you? I am not looking for empathy I am looking for a solution. I have used more than one site and I have had a better chance with women in person. In my opinion it means doing the right thing. Being honest, loyal, and an overall a good person. Maybe you have a different definition?

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      YaReally 4 months ago

      Great article!

      "The woman has to step up her game as well" YaReally!

      It is hard to find someone special with the way dating is now, and the social media mess. Certainly too many hookups have made me jaded, but I need to care a little less about flaws and see the good.

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      Yves 4 months ago

      YaReally.....What a catchy name! It's good to be picky, but not so picky that we find we're down to one date every seven years. Lol. And yes, the hook-up thing gets old after awhile, as it really is the fastest way to become jaded. However, it sounds like you are considering a new perspective. That's awesome!

      Dating isn't particularly easy these days, but if you go out on a date and think of it as a way to get to know someone and nothing more (in the beginning), you might have greater success. I have an article about dating (101), which you may find helpful. Thanks for commenting.

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      StephTo 3 months ago

      1) Why is being uncomplicated a bad thing? What if that is what you are?

      2) It is always assumed that women who are not overly feminine / men who are not overly masculine are fighting their true nature. What if that is just how they are?

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      Yves 3 months ago

      Hello StepTo.....Being uncomplicated is not a bad thing, in and of itself. I went on to say that sometimes people wear their heart on their sleeve or say too much too fast. That particular type of behavior scares people off, especially men. My point is that is best to be relaxed on a date, as opposed to revealing one's life history or innermost feelings about everything.

      Secondly, some people are truly androgynous. A small percentage of people truly have no interest in sex. If either is who they are, there is nothing wrong with it, for they are truly being themselves.

      In the article, I am referring to men who have abdicated all responsibility to care for a female. Such men want the convenience of a woman without the responsibility. A real man would never approve of that type of behavior. Just ask any father who wants the best for his daughter. I've written a hub about male and female "energy" and how they differ. It is about valuing womankind for the gifts they offer, which are different from the gifts men offer. The gist is that a world without women would be an unhappy and very different place.

      Thanks for commenting and asking such relevant questions.

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      Freesia1 3 months ago

      This post caught my eye as I was browsing through diff articles and seeing some of the comments really opened my eyes to the unfortunate, very sad and ridiculously cynical men out there...

      I'm 34 have three children and I divorced my husband... I am the one that had to pay him to leave me alone ... He hadn't put in anything financial ... I bought the house with my money... He contributed very little if any to daily expenses and was an insecure man who blamed me for everything ... He was both physically and emotionally abusive ... I felt it took me an eternity to muster up the courage to leave ... Eventually I did and financially it was draining on me ... I don't get a penny in child support.. I still own my own home, take care of my children, have a career and still sort myself out mentally on a daily basis. The point being, it took me a long while to realize I was married to a 'gatherer' and it started off right when we were dating but I was too young and naive to notice..

      Even though I went through all of that physical and mental abuse ...not to mention a few hundred grand poorer I am still not half as cynical or jaded as the rest of these pathetic creatures who have decided to make completely idiotic comments. I believe if you constantly work on being aware (faults and or achievements) that is what you attract. And women don't need to be 'taken care of' financially... I think the ones (women) who have a high sense of self worth, just need to be persued, adored and respected ... And none of that has anything to do with money ...

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      Yves 3 months ago

      Freesia....I love your comment. You laid it all out there. No excuses. No victim mentality. I applaud you for moving forward, even though it was very, very difficult for you, both financially and emotionally.

      You are the type of woman who can look in the mirror and say to herself, "You know what, I like myself." There is no better feeling than that.

      Quite a few of the men who have commented here will never be able to say that to themselves.

      Sadly, I have had delete plenty of other comments that were so abusive and vile, there was no way I could allow them to be printed here. Such men, as you say, are indeed sad and pathetic.

      A real man wants to love, adore, and provide for his family. He also understands her contribution, in and out of the home---inasmuch as any man can. Lol.

      Thank you for commenting. You've become a woman who is worth her weight in gold. Never forget that. Just keep moving forward. You will be just fine, with or without a man. I know one thing. A good man would be lucky to have you. ;)

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      Yves 3 months ago

      Bob...Not all women set the bar that low. That being said, others' spend too much time making excuses for bad men. Can't say I've been one of them, which is why I am compelled to write articles with the hope of helping women and men.

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      Yves 3 months ago

      Most women are not reality TV stars. It is not appropriate to call women evil. I know plenty of good women, who are truly decent, responsible women. Good and bad people exist everywhere.

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      Roberto 3 months ago

      I saw a sign on another website the other day that may sum this up for a lot of people. This is what it said:

      "I don't need no man."

      "Why can't I find a good man?"

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      Yves 3 months ago

      Roberto....Sounds like whoever wrote the sign can't make up her mind. I've never said there are no good men. I've written articles about good men. Just not into 'gatherers.'

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      Paul 2 months ago

      I've read with interest your response that women are neither things products or commodities. You completely failed to recognize that if there is indeed some form a partnership that it is totally inequitable. Any man looking at his risks realizes that 50% of marriages fail. That means 50% of the time he will lose his children. Almost 100% of the custody goes to the female for no valid reason. The children were raised in daycare for the most part and don't have a greater affinity for their mother than their father. Many men have terrible times accessing the children. On the other hand the arm of the law which is essentially violence is able to coerce child support payments and alimony from a man who is deprived of his children and indeed and intimate relationship. You say a man can do something about it? Well actually 90% of divorces are initiated by women. In the long run is far better off keeping his relationships with women as very casual and be very careful to document the consent to having an intimate relations. It's easy for woman to accuse A man of anything. A young girls who play basketball told the coach to back off because she can say that he touched her. I don't personally have one friend who indeed quit coaching girls basketball because of it. So you come back to the issue of doing the math. The odds are stacked against the man. Feminism is not about equality in its present form. When you see females walking around with T-shirts that say I bathed in mail tears it's almost ironic because eventually they'll bath in their own tears. Karma is a bitch. One day I was told off for opening a door for a woman. From that day on I never did. One woman started berating me that I didn't open the door for her and I said I always open The door for the ladies. But she is no lady. Sorry for the bad news. But if you research and study the herbivores of Japan you will start to understand what's happening in this country. You will remain naïve if you don't realize that there really is no benefit for a man to get married.

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      Yves 2 months ago

      Paul, I am familiar with MGTOW and the herbivores of Japan. Unfortunately, Japan has a caste system wherein many educated young men are pressured to work long, hard hours (between 60 and 80) for the sake of society. These young men are also dying off like flies, either from stress or suicide. They don't actually have the time to invest in a relationship. They are owned by the company. They also drink heavily.

      Some American men mistakenly believe they are better off becoming like Japanese men who have forsaken marriage. What they fail to realize is that this lifestyle is unhealthy, if not deadly for the psyche, in the long term.

      Frankly, I find it sad that men are so offended by women, they would rather have a virtual sex life. That being said, in Japan, things are a bit different. Men who are not masculine at all are naturally disinclined to forsake romantic relationships. Apparently, such men are quite common in Japan, and they are usually young men who find a certain satisfaction in working less and relying on virtual reality to gain pleasure.

      The point is that MGTOW is an offshoot of this Japanese trend, even though American culture is different from the Japanese culture which places more value on certain types of passivity.

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      leoncer 2 months ago

      A little one-sided, I guess, but I do believe in being a good husband,father,provider, etc., but I will be vilified for saying

      that I DO respect women, but do NOT appreciate the notion that a women who would ask ME out is somehow a "doormat" or someone who would bore me.

      I am trying to understand about these "gatherers" and how a man must be"self-centered" when he needs to see that an object of his interest is also interested. We do understand that men and women are different, but there is a really unfair brush being use to paint here.

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      Tim 2 months ago

      Hello. I'm now 53 my ex and I married when I was 24 her 26 now divorced 4 years unfortunately. Online dating is a crap shoot a game without any body language etc. Don't get me wrong but it seems women are put off by being approached in public.. creep alert. How things have change the last 30 years! I guess it doesn't help I currently live in Boise: either college students or married. Be moving on in 2 years...life is an adventure... cheers!

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      Yves 2 months ago

      Hello Tim....Getting involved in group activities might be useful. You might make some friends who could recommend a friend. Online dating is OK, at best. In time, some things will happen for you... Meanwhile, just keep enjoying the things and people you love. ;)

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      TMQ333 2 months ago

      After reading the whole thing... I don't get it? Guys decide that they are more than relationship dispensers, and that makes them 'lazy' and 'self entitled'? I know that you are trying to give ballanced advice here, but it just comes accros as a personal vendetta against passive guys. As a passive guy, I am a little bothered by this. According to your advice, women should stay away from me because I'm not proactive? I think you are just causing more greif to people who already suffer enough. The fact that women are becoming more active daters is GOOD, that is a good thing. It give them control, and agency.

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      Yves 2 months ago

      TMQ333....It is not my intention to make passive guys feel bad about themselves, unless those same guys hate women. If you like women and you happen to be very shy, that is not an issue. This article refers to men who don't care about commitment.

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      Yves 2 months ago

      Brian...Women are not the one's who will suffer if men choose to go the MGTOW route. You might want to do some research on men who give up. It isn't pretty. Meanwhile, women will simply go on about their business. Women I know are not desperate.

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      JasonPrell 2 months ago

      Hi I just read this article and the comments. I felt compelled to respond. As a bachelor man who never married who has has identified himself as MGTOW I feel you have a point savvy dating.

      I think the MGTOW movement has gotten to many angry bitter men who have given up and made the MGTOW movement look terrible and hateful. However based on my experience with as a MGTOW since 2009, there are a lot of MGTOW men who are succesfull in their careers and healthy and just have been wounded by women. Many MGTOW in my opinion have wounds origination from painful experiences with our mothers and/or sisters. For example in my life, my father was abusive both physically and emotionally and my mom never protected me from him. I hear similar wounds from MGTOW men. The aim of MGTOW is about healing. Men who have decided tht theu need to introspect and stay single and perhaps separate from women to heal. There is a website called "happy bachelors" that has been around since the inception of the MGTOW movement around 2005. Many MGTOW men are attorneys, architects, engineers, tradesman and are good men who have been wounded by women and have decided to "go their own way; and not be defined by our culture saying a man is incomplete without a woman. I echo what your saying that the hateful misogynistic from MGTOW comments is awful for the movement. But please be aware their are capable, authentic, successful MGTOW who support equality for women. In a way MGTOW is comparable to feminism in that MGTOW is about men choosing to transcend traditional gender roles and become independent of society roles about having to be coupled. Unfortunately much of the MGTOW you gear online is hateful and misogynistic. However there are numerous MGTOW men who are not hatefl toward women but have been very wounded by wome especially early in life, These MGTOW men just have chosen not to marry or even date anymore have chosen to stay single. Websites such as happy bachelors and The Mankind Project are more a better reflection of MGTOW. You are indeed correct it has taken off in Japan with the herbivores. I guess the American equivalent is MGTOW. I wish you all the best on this blog.

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      JasonPrell 2 months ago

      savvy dating wrote:

      Brian...Women are not the one's who will suffer if men choose to go the MGTOW route. You might want to do some research on men who give up. It isn't pretty. Meanwhile, women will simply go on about their business. Women I know are not desperate.

      As an MGTOW, I agree with you it that women are not desperate and many men who give up do fall into depression and women do go on with their lives. However, when many men give up

      like whats happening in Japan and the growing MGTOW here it does affect womenas well. After all if one gender loses we both do. We are all in this together. Even if one stable, successful man gives up ( I am not talking about the angry bitter MGTOW)there is one less man available for a woman. I agree with you many women are not desperate and will go n with their lives despite MGTOW. But when a lot of men give up- it does affect women. After all as humankind we are all in this together. I am not talking about the angry bitter hateful MGTOW. But the successful, caring MGTOW who has been wounded by women in his life. It has to affect women. Just like wounded women who protested in the feminist movement in the 1970's affected men. I know a lot of men who would care and be hurt or sad if lots of women gave up on dating and their was less women to date. Conversely when many wounded men who ordinarily would be good husband or boyfriends decide to give up dating and stay single it should make at least some women sad or have some effect on womankind. In a way I think women like you and blogs like this can be a way of healing and reaching out to MGTOW men. I think its sad that many men have given up- no one should be alone. Sure there are hateful MGTOW towards women but there are a lot of good MGTOW successful men who potentially would have been capable partners but have just been wounded.

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      Yves 2 months ago

      JasonPrell....You make a good point about the MGTOW movement having an effect upon women and society, in the long run. In Japan, for example, the birth rate has gone down. This is not necessarily a good thing because a society needs new offspring to be innovative, to work, and to care for the elderly. China is having this problem as we speak, but in their case, it is because of their 1-child policy, which they have now altered.

      Anyway, I was short with Brian because he is an angry, sarcastic man. Consequently, I generally dismiss such men due to their lack of respect for women.

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      Andrea 2 months ago

      Yves, thank you so much for this amazing article. You were able to articulate a lot of the frustration that I've been feeling with dating. This does seem to be a very real epidemic among single women that I know. Hopefully awereness can be raised!

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      Yves 2 months ago

      I hope so, Andrea...and thank you for your kind compliment. (Some of my male readers (though not all) have been less than generous. Lol.

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      Kelly Stills 2 months ago

      Yves.

      I am curious for you to expand on exactly what you mean when you use the word "pursue" to describe what the men are supposed to be doing. It all seems very vague to me...insofar as applying it to a real life situation. Here are some quotes:

      "putting in the time and effort to pursue a woman who truly interests him, the way men used to do."

      "He is the guy who let's the women come to him. He does not pursue women."

      "She can let the man seek her."

      "Women actually liked having the man pursue her. His effort proved he had a level of interest."

      "who actually enjoy pursuing a woman, who exhibit patience and caring"

      "Once a woman has determined she is interested in someone, she is free to capture his attention. However, she does this with care. She does not rush into a situation without first finding out what she is getting into."

      I guess, to explain it, could you apply "pursuit" to some real life situations. Like, one in which the two have much contact and know each other despite lack of romantic relationship (co-workers, neighbors, church group, etc.). And another situation in which the two are otherwise strangers and met at a gathering in which they share no friends in common or met in a bookstore or something.

      I mean, when reading, one might assume you are speaking of the man simply asking the woman out, but if that is what you meant, it would be easy enough for you to write that. Plus, you seem to be indicating an ongoing action of some sort.

      From my perspective, in either of those situations, or many similar types, all that really needs to occur is something like this: The man or woman has interest in someone, they ask if they are interested in "going out", or something like that, preferably they speak about important compatibility points (on the phone or on a "date") to see if it is even worth pursuing anything, and if it seems like they could possibly work, they start investing time in getting to know one another. It escalates from there.

      It sounds like you are speaking of something completely different. But I don't know.

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      Yves 2 months ago

      Hello Kelly....I am describing what you wrote about in your last full paragraph. This article is intended as a warning against men who are contented to sit back and let women do all the work, to include asking him out and paying most of the expenses when dating or in a co-habitation scenario. Such men also demand that the woman prove herself to him, even though he is a free-loader or someone who uses women strictly as a sexual convenience. In short, I am warning women not to get involved with men who do not respect women. That is what this article is about. Thanks for commenting!

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      Yves 2 months ago

      Pablo, I agree that women who treat men badly do not deserve your respect. I do not approve of women who act like spoiled brats. Healthy relationships are a matter of give and take. Both parties must be responsible adults.

      I have observed that both men and women fail to take inventory of people's actions, as opposed to how they look. The old adage is true, "Beauty is as beauty does." Not all women act badly. The question to ask yourself is, "Why do you keep attracting the same type of woman?" I tell women to ask themselves the same thing. Good for thought.

      Thank you for writing in, Pablo. I appreciate your concerns.

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      Tim 2 months ago

      Coming from a feminist that sypathizes with her own gender.

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      Yves 2 months ago

      Why wouldn't I sympathize with my own gender?

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      Paula 2 months ago from Beautiful Upstate New York

      Yves....the photo of the napping Mom & newborn is priceless~~just gave me a twinge of precious memories.........

      Excellent hub! I don't know how much I should divulge. In the 4 years since my husband passed away, I've only recently agreed to go to dinner a few times. Needless to say, I feel my "seriously-dating" days are long gone. I'm just not that into it.

      Frankly Yves, at this point in my life, I have no confusion nor frustration where "men" are concerned. LOL....(sorry, I was just thinking of some humdinger comments I could make~but I'll restrain myself)

      This fabulous dating tutorial of yours should be required reading for the young single woman who is out there looking for Mr. Right. The tips you give are invaluable. In fact, I'll be sending the link to my 24 year-old "gorgeous" Granddaughter!

      As for me? Girlfriend.....I could write my own BOOK!! LOL

      Great work, Yves. You should do the "Lecture Circuit!!" Paula

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      Yves 2 months ago

      Thank you, Paula. The dating situation is rather dire, I feel. Nevertheless, there are still men who love a good chase. Howevet, if the comments I get from many men on this site is any indication, those numbers are dwindling for reasons we did not forsee.

      Thanks for the rave review! I hope your beautiful granddaughter will get some useful information from this article. So good of you to share.;)

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      Paula 2 months ago from Beautiful Upstate New York

      O-M-G, Yves. Now you KNOW I am not going to allow such fabulous comedy material to go untouched! My wit lit up like the 4th of July, reading the exchange between you & "LOL." What a guy...I think I'll adopt him. LOL

      Dear Mr. Porn, I truly understand your dilemma. A man's gotta do what a man's gotta do, eh? I'm not sure if it was "intentional" or not but I believe you meant to say that men do this to "alleviate" a problem......you actually printed "levitate" it. That has to be the best Freudian slip of all time!! Yes, LOL, I see what you mean. Porn certainly does levitate your problem.

      And Yves....your advice to LOL is just fine of course. I understand why you suggest to him that he may learn his lesson the hard way~~but that's exactly what he was trying to tell you!! For him, the only way IS the HARD way!! LOL LOL LOL ....I love you guys!! My mission is complete. LOL

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      Yves 2 months ago

      Paula, I did think about using a different word. Ha;) Truth be told, I get a lot of comments from porn addicts and from the MGTOW community. If society does begin providing more education on this very serious subject, we could end up like Japan, where men are turning away from women in droves.

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      Paula 2 months ago from Beautiful Upstate New York

      Yves......"Mark" has written in before? How special. You can only hope he doesn't take that opportunity again. Good grief, what a long-winded, blowhard. Apparently he needed the practice for his Sunday sermon.

      I feel no need to tolerate these trolls and sock puppets, even for a moment. If they truly believe they have opinions of substance, they can sign on as an official member, contribute to our overall site and be active, familiar participants. Period, the end. Otherwise, it would be greatly appreciated if they would find another outlet for their self-aggrandized philosophy.

      Clearly, they've admitted to being experts at finding "alternative outlets!" What twits!

      With an online identity as "LOL," and the ludicrous content of his comment, there's no logical way to respond but with humor! Try to get real, guys.

      It's beginning to look more and more like we need to activate and strengthen our Troll Eliminator Troops. (such a waste of our precious time.) You have quite the active thread here!

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      Dont Taze Me Bro 2 months ago from TWO OF THE MANY LYING LIB CRYBABIES OF HUB PAGES

      Interesting hub page, Ives! I couldn't get by with just skimming it which I always do first because invariably I'll be stumped by a statement early on that reveals it is a hub page not even worth the read. This one I had to read it all. And I agree with your conclusions.

      I would like to point out however, you use the term hunter gatherer referring to the historic roots of the male gender and that "the reality is that the male gatherer has lost his instinct for honest romance and true commitment. He is not the gentle, caring, fair minded man he claimed to be."

      Correct me if I am wrong but the instinctive "male gatherer" of old was not what we would consider gentle, caring and fair minded nor do I think he claimed to be. History tells me of the prevalence of arranged marriages, concubines and then there was this http://cache4.asset-cache.net/xc/110904224.jpg?v=2...

      Great hub page.

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      Yves 2 months ago

      Pretty much, Paula. 99.9% of the MGTOW community is very hostile to women, in my experience..,,and they love telling me about their contempt for females. I've deleted about a third of the comments here, altogether. I'll delete more later on today. One man, Jason is not hostile, nor is Cygnus.

      I have allowed some of these men in as examples to women of what to avoid and why, as they have proved my point. Now it's time for them to go. Their presence is toxic, and hearing from them is enough for some women readers to give up on men altogether.

      Thanks for the reminder.

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      Yves 2 months ago

      Taze...You are correct. That was a recent addition which is inaccurate, and which I had not yet changed. In my mind, I was thinking of the gatherers of the 60's, who claimed to be feminists, but who were secret chauvinists. In fact, I have a few small changes to make, which I hope to do today, if time permits.

      I appreciate your stopping by. It's a relief to hear from a man who doesn't hate women, for a change. Ha!

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      Cygnus2112 2 months ago

      I agree Yves. There is a platform of MGTOW ' that can express anger or frustrations with the dating game. in some type of non violent communication without hating on women. After all the MGTOW movement had some clear similarities to the Feminist movement in terms of men questioning their societal and cultural roles and thinking outside the box. Thankfully there are men's groups such as The Mankind Project where men can get together in unity and express their frustrations and get in touch with their emotions but can convert any hatred or negativity towards women into compassion. Women can do the same thing as men. If you look at the herbivores in Japan- the equivalent of MGTOW, many men have given up dating women and sex but they are not misogynistic. I've heard them interviewed. They have friends who are women but they have chosen to not get romantically involved with women but they are not hateful. Robert Bly and Sam Keen were 2 men who sort of led the MGTOW trend years ago. A great book is Sam Keen's" Fire in the Belly."

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      Yves 2 months ago

      The herbivores of Japan are quite mild mannered, and in that respect, they are unlike the majority of MGTOW's that I hear from. The herbviores may be an offshoot of MGTOW, but they seem quite different to me in that they have female friends, as you mentioned. Thanks for the book reference, Cygnus.

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      junko 2 months ago

      In order to be a good man one must see a good man while a man-child. To recognize a good man a woman must have known the strength of a good man while a young lady.

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      Yves 2 months ago

      That helps a lot, Junko. However, we can also learn some things by observing what does not work in the lives of our parents. That made a difference in my young mind..,

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      Phillip 2 months ago

      Pretty interesting. But still, if a man "pursues" a woman society deems him as a creeper or someone "out to get only one thing from a woman".

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      Yves 2 months ago

      To pursue out of genuine interest is not the same as stalking. Two different things. Thanks for stopping by, Phillip.

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      Steve42 2 months ago

      I enjoyed the article and the comments. Food for thought.

      I think pursuit has changed a lot in the past 50 years because pursuit used to have a goal: finding a long term partner for marriage and children. And everyone was playing the same game.

      Nowadays people want different things - or they don't even know what they want. Short Term? Long term with no kids? One night stand? Kids with no relationship? Just fun and adventure for now? Or just want to make fun of the opposite sex with their friends? It's a grab bag.

      I wonder how many potential relationships were never formed because the two people who met wanted different things at the time.

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      Yves 2 months ago

      Probably quite a lot, Steve42. Part of it is timing...

      The other part is a changing society. Nevertheless, most women I've met want to find the right man eventually, and for the long term. Good food for thought you've brought to the table today. Thank you for that.

    • savvydating profile image
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      Yves 2 months ago

      Taze...there is a reason why you are successful with women...and why you have the good sense to love your particularly strong, feminine wife. Thank you for being an example of what a real man sounds like. I appreciate you.

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      Yves 2 months ago

      Taze, Will you kindly re-submit your comment. It appeared twice on my end. I deleted one (same) comment and everything disappeared. :(

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      Mike 2 months ago

      I'm tired of being told what a real man should be - especially from someone who clearly doesn't understand a man's perspective. I'm successful, and had a great father figure growing up. I feel like the advice here only tells women to double down and dig there heels in even deeper, and will only lead to more frustration. They really can't see outside themselves. Not only did this sexist piece box men unrealistically it is creating unhealthy delusions. Does the author ever consider looking in the mirror? If the incentives existed the successful men would be behaving in a way that led to long term monogamy, but they don't. Things are the way they are - just because you state your assumptions as fact doesn't make them true.

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      Yves 2 months ago

      Mike, I do not think you are in a position to lecture anyone on "unhealthy delusions." I doubt that you even read the article.

    • Dont Taze Me Bro profile image

      Dont Taze Me Bro 2 months ago from TWO OF THE MANY LYING LIB CRYBABIES OF HUB PAGES

      Ives, what I said in my comment which disappeared was to thank you for telling it like it is and drawing a line with respect to Davenport's comments. And I mentioned that if men like him really knew anything about femininity (attractiveness is not the definition of femininity) they'd understand that women let men believe they are the pursuer when in reality it's the reverse...which is OK with me. :-)

      And thank you Ives for the compliment. I appreciate you too.

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      Yves 2 months ago

      Thank you for re-posting, Taze. So true that "attractiveness is not the definition of femininity."

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      Yves 2 months ago

      Absolutely, Taze. As an aside, I don't even want to contemplate what "incentives" are in Mike's world.

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      Mike 2 months ago

      Sadly Ives I read the entire author and you offered nothing new only probably leaving women in a worse place by doubling down on a strategy that doesn't work.

      Ives it's not all or never that's thinking in absolutes like the Sith hahahaha and a quick way to the dark side.

      We are talking about single successful people we all know great relationships.

      Who's not in the position to write about unhealthy delusions? You wrote this entire unrealistic piece it's not about me I wouldn't be here otherwise.

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      Yves 2 months ago

      So now we're talking about Star Wars? Get a life, Mike.

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      Internet Commenter 8 weeks ago

      Why do so many women have this bizarre infatuation with "true love"?

      I'm male; all I really want is to have sex and then move on. Sex is fun!

      I don't want to screw your life up, and I expect the same consideration; I don't want to impose on your time, and I expect the same consideration; I have my own life and skyrocketing career and hobbies and friends, and I hope you have yours. I'd love to have children, but my standards for personality and intelligence are extremely high--I don't want dumb kids. What should I do while I search for this superwoman? Be celibate?

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      Yves 8 weeks ago

      Wow! Narcissistic much? Internet Commenter, this hub article is not about celibacy. I don't think you have to worry about "true love." I can pretty much guarantee that a solid relationship is not in your future, unless you decide to become a decent person. But thanks for reading.

    • Dont Taze Me Bro profile image

      Dont Taze Me Bro 8 weeks ago from TWO OF THE MANY LYING LIB CRYBABIES OF HUB PAGES

      Internet commenter - I can't believe a word you said. You are spoofing us, right?

      "I'm male, all I really want is to have sex and then move on. Sex is fun!" lol so you expect us to infer from that statement all males want to do is have sex because it is fun? Not very intelligent.

      "I don't want to screw your life up, and I expect the same consideration; I don't want to impose on your time" So being promiscuous in your mind can't lead to SDs which are a serious imposition upon you and your partners let alone can result in your early death. Not very intelligent.

      "I have my own life and skyrocketing career and hobbies and friends" Skyrocketing career? Kiss that good bye, based on your philosophy the only thing in your life that is likely to skyrocket is disease, depression and social exorcism. Not very intelligent.

      "my standards for personality and intelligence are extremely high...I don't want dumb kids" Your standards are far higher than your own intelligence which, and I think you know this, will only result in dumb kids if you were to father any. Not very intelligent.

      So you see, take it from someone who obviously far exceeds your standards for intelligence you aren't fooling me, your comment has to be meant as a spoof.

    • savvydating profile image
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      Yves 8 weeks ago

      Yep, the "high standards" of which Internet Commentor" speaks of, are clearly lacking in his own life, Taze. Spoof or no spoof.

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      Paula 8 weeks ago from Beautiful Upstate New York

      Internet Commenter....aren't you a real lover boy. I can't imagine every top shelf woman not chomping at the bit to date you... Do you accept resume's or perhaps sell raffle tickets for a chance to be in your presence? Hey, big boy, mark me down for exactly zero tickets.

      It pains me to be the bearer of bad news, sweet cheeks, but babies inherit 50% DNA from Mama and 50% from Daddy. Not to worry though.....you can always dress your baby well to cover for your useless 50%.

      Keep that Rx. for penicillin filled!! You're gonna do just fine.

    • savvydating profile image
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      Yves 8 weeks ago

      Okay...Now that is funny stuff, folks!

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      Paula 8 weeks ago from Beautiful Upstate New York

      Thank you, thank you.....autographs after the show, folks.....and my newest CD for sale: "How to Let a Man Down, Without Having to Shoot Him.".......Please...no more applause......Thank you.

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      Yves 8 weeks ago

      That time, I laughed out loud---for real!!

    • savvydating profile image
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      Yves 6 weeks ago

      Charming. Your mother must be so proud.

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      Paula 6 weeks ago from Beautiful Upstate New York

      ROFLMAO!!! Oh Yves, my wonderfully brilliant friend.....You CRACK me up, woman! I wouldn't know how proud his mother would be~~but the entire world is proud of YOU! 7 of the most powerful words ever written on HP!! LOL. I love it!

    • Dont Taze Me Bro profile image

      Dont Taze Me Bro 6 weeks ago from TWO OF THE MANY LYING LIB CRYBABIES OF HUB PAGES

      Jason, what you describe does appear to be a situation that certainly increases stress, complication and worry for women who would like to find the man of their dreams or if it is so bad even just a man! But I think that if men are less obtainable that could be a good thing because maybe women, as Ives says, will concentrate more on knowing and developing themselves and take care of themselves. Some good advice for women today would be for them to cast all their cares upon Christ and trust them to Him so they can live their life worry free, content in whatever their father in heaven has planned for them. Life here is but a blip on the radar of eternity.

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      Yves 6 weeks ago

      Jason....so much to discuss, but I will leave my comments for another day when I have more time for reflection. But I appreciated what you said about vulnerability.

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      Yves 6 weeks ago

      Taze, we would do well to become more God-centered. That is for sure. Thank you for saying so.

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      Drew 6 weeks ago

      It's understandable the views you have given that it was written from the standpoint of a woman. I would like you to consider some things however.

      I am a 27 year old male by the way.

      Have you approach a man you have interest in?

      Based on my observation most men a bombarbed with " men should respect women" from a child that we forget to teach our daughters that men are people with feelings as well. This has produced a generation of women who think it's perfectly ok to disrepct men even when it's not warranted. Just look on youtube with social experiments with women punching men in their face while people Just stand their an laugh. Believe it or not our experiences in life tend to mold our perception of people. I think you should write and article teaching women how to repect men who approach them even if they are not interested. Women can't disrespect a man who don't approach them and that's what it pretty much boils down to. Men avoid being disrespected. The dating scene is the ramifications of a society that forget men were people with feelings too. Unfortunately men play a big role in this by telling men expression emotions is a form of weakness. If women are forced to walk to up to guy, he is put in a position of power, he can obliterate her ego if he wants. I know it's not so appealing is it.

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      Yves 6 weeks ago

      Drew....I have been thinking of writing a hub about what women can do better, emotionally speaking. Personally, I have NEVER believed that men who show their emotions are weak. Just the opposite, in fact. But you are correct. Both sexes deserve respect when they show respect. That being said, I have had to delete dozens of comments from men who have used vulgar language here. There is a lot to be said for civility. Thank you for keeping your comments civil.

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      Yves 4 weeks ago

      Hello Adam.....I do speak from a woman's point of view most of the time, but I have also stated that kindness or showing expression, in a male, is not weakness AT ALL. It is the opposite, in fact. If I seem dismissive at times, it is because I have had to delete about 1/3 of the comments I receive from men who were so vile, it is almost unimaginable.

      In truth, I am here to teach women to have self respect and to never fall for a man who treats them badly. Why some women put up with that sort of nonsense is beyond me. Even as a teenager I didn't put up with "crap." Furthermore, I never judged a man by how much money he makes. I look at how he treats me and how he treats others. My standards are anything but artificial, so I have no idea where how you came to that conclusion.

      Anyway, the point is that good women do exist, and I see no reason why you cannot find one in time. You are still very young. As for rape accusations, it happens---but in most cases, most women would rather jump off a bridge than go through a rape trial. Why? Because lawyers always make her out to be the "bad girl" even if she was a victim.

      As for your deciding to treat women badly these days, that only means you have chosen to date insecure women, whether you realize it or not because no worthwhile, self-assured woman would knowingly date a jerk. I assume you would like to marry a worthwhile woman one day. It would be well for you to alter some of your views regarding women. Frankly, I am sorry that you run into so many disrespectful women. Unfortunately, I hear the very same complaint from women---that men are not very nice nowadays. It seems to me that both sexes really need to get their acts together. That is why I write articles for both men and women---to help them get a clue.

      Thanks for commenting. I appreciate it.

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      SimonSee 2 weeks ago

      One thing that feminism did not expect, would be that as women change, men would also change. Men wouldn't be as chivalrous and traditional as in the past anymore, just as women are not traditional anymore.

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      Yves 2 weeks ago

      Simon, both sexes are frustrated. You had mentioned that divorce benefits women financially. That is not accurate, unless the husband was very wealthy. In most cases, his income was average and things get divided. Then the woman goes on to work and raise children. She generally has a very hard time of it.

      But You are right in saying that no man wants to be disrespected. He shouldn't be either, provided he is a decent person.

      Militant feminist may hate masculinity, but the rest of us love masculinity in a man. But as I mentioned, the roles are blurred.

      Thank you for expressing your views, Simon. I hear your frustration.

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      Yves 2 weeks ago

      I do not disagree. I've written an article about this very thing---of women becoming "masculine."

      However, I would encourage you not to blame women for everything. That being said, some feminist on the far left are not particularly reasonable, in my experience.

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      Steve Weatherbe 6 days ago

      Just one bone to pick, or a clarification. You seem early on to be equating the gatherer role, at least when men assume it, with an aversion to commitment. But the women in the gatherer role were big on commitment. I think the two different approaches to commitment have not changed. They are biological. WOmen, as childbearers and rearers, need committed support to undertake the role so important to species survival. Men want pleasure. Neither has changed in that regard.

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      Yves 6 days ago

      Hello Steve..... Men do want pleasure, but some are willing to commit to a woman they love. The male gatherer I speak of does not have the character needed to become a mature adult. Thus, he cannot love anybody. His only goal is pleasure. Some men choose to be better than that.

      Thank you for stopping by.

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