Why Women Are Frustrated and Confused About Men and Dating

Updated on April 17, 2018
savvydating profile image

Yves mission is to teach women how to set some parameters and to acquire some "savvy" in order to attract positive relationships.

Many women are confused and frustrated about men and dating....and they don’t know why. Here is my take on this malaise: At one time, men were the hunters and women were the gatherers. On an intuitive level, this essence is still alive today. However, since the advent of the sixties sexual revolution, American cultural standards have shifted.

Men and women are exhibiting somewhat androgynous behavior. It is now becoming politically incorrect to make distinctions between men and women. Mind you, not everyone believes men and women are exactly the same, but some do. Thus, the distinctions between the sexes are blurred. America's sexual revolution has created confusion about the relational roles between males and females.

Consequently, there is a whole lot of friction going on in the world of dating.

For example, in recent decades, women have begun hunting and gathering for the male, so to speak. Traditional romantic roles are going by the wayside. Society has inadvertently produced a new male prototype who has become adept at not putting in the time and effort to pursue a woman who truly interests him---the way men used to do.

Such men are convinced that it is perfectly fine for him to be "a gatherer," but the problem is, women are not natural "hunters." Nevertheless, because women are ever the adapters, they have chosen to compensate for the rise of the culturally androgynous male, aka, the "male gatherer." She has now assumed his previous role---that of protector and provider.

Who is the male gatherer? He is the male who claims to have embraced equality, but who actually doesn't respect women all that much. You've come across him. He is the guy who let's the women come to him. He does not pursue women. He lives solely for his own pleasure. His take is, "If women want equal rights, let her prove herself to me."

1960s Cultural Movement

The 1960's cultural movement had good intentions and some positive outcomes. However, the sexual revolution has failed us in the area of love, romance and commitment. Unfortunately, too many American men have morphed into something we did not foresee coming----the "gatherer," who is not adept at committing, pursuing or providing.

Herein lies the crux of the matter: Feminists had the right idea about wanting more equality, as in equal pay, but they got a little side-tracked by the free love thing. What they didn't realize is that most men are more than happy to accept the "No Strings Attached" philosophy of "free love." His philosophy goes something like this: "If we live together, I will enjoy the convenience of having a quasi-wife, but without any messy responsibilities or financial risk."

The male gatherer is into "low stress" relationships. In the event he should decide a woman with whom he is co-habitating doesn't meet his needs after all, he has no problem leaving. His reasons why?

"She was too much trouble. Who needs the drama?"

Meanwhile, he takes pleasure in having sex on a regular basis. Gratification with no commitment and no repercussions---that's his motto.

Yet sadly, women offer themselves up to the male gatherer, even though he has lost his instinct for honest romance and true commitment. Courting women isn't part of the gatherers' paradigm. He believes relationships should be easy and uncomplicated. Easy come, easy go. His expectations do not mirror the truth, which is that anything worth having requires time and effort to have.

Thus, having experienced disappointment in dating for the umpteenth time, many women carry around a perpetual cloud of frustration and anger. Nevertheless, not wanting to appear passive, women continue the hunt.

“We have to go after guys," they insist. "If we wait, nothing happens." "What choice do we have?"

Confusion
Confusion | Source

Women who feel this way have a point, but their premise is wrong. She has another choice. She can let the man seek her. Here’s the thing. Women actually like having the man pursue her. His effort shows her he has a level of interest. She finds his pursuit of her hot and efficient - sort of like the engine of a BMW.

But the gatherer guy....well...he lacks drive. He's a Ford Pinto, or maybe a Volkswagen bus. The easy love thing works for him, but it isn't working for her. Apparently, easy love isn't so easy after all. Unwed mothers who struggle to raise their children without father's know this better than anyone. Unfortunately, the children get the raw end of the deal.

Tired mom
Tired mom
Percentage of Single Mothers Who are Hispanic
Percentage of single mothers who are White
Percentage of Single Mothers Who are Black
Percentage of Single Mothers Who are American Indian
42%
25%
67%
52%
Kids Count Data Center

What Needs to Happen

So what's a woman to do? First, she must learn to recognize the male gatherer. She must then stop throwing herself at his feet. Forever. Male gatherer guy does not have the inclination or the stamina for true romance women crave. He always leaves women feeling emotionally shortchanged. Why? Because he is, in fact, emotionally stunted. Chances are high that he didn't have a father to teach him the responsibilities of manhood.

In any event, any woman who truly wants an emotionally satisfying relationship with a man must first decide to place more value on her worth, her time, her career and her passions. In so doing, she changes her own perspective about the value of her life. Women must realize that meeting a great guy is icing on the cake. Icing is delicious; it can make a lovely difference---but it is still optional.

Women Have to Step Up Their Game as Well

She must learn to appreciate her womanhood and everything that being a woman entails, to include embracing her femininity. She doesn't have to become a man to be "equal." We are all equal by virtue of our humanity.

I knew a man who was a former hippie. He was highly educated, but the gatherer/hippie mentality never really left him. Anyway, he told me that he had lived in a commune where he really enjoyed his life. He talked about how fun it was to get naked and paint women's bodies. This, I gathered, was a type of foreplay. He went on to say that the only disagreeable aspect of commune life was that the women were, "Really messed up."

Not exactly the picture of a woman who has it "together."
Not exactly the picture of a woman who has it "together."

I guess so. Having multiple partners, not knowing who the father of your child is, and whether or not your lover(s) even remembered you from the day or night before would make any woman "a mess." The dirty little secret about the free love men of the 60's is that they were rampant chauvinists. They made love, smoked pot, quoted Nietzsche, Karl Marx, and existential poetry. They didn't do much else.

Meanwhile, the woman cooked, cleaned, scrabbled for food and even made herself available to other lovers at the request of her "main man." You know, equal love and all that. It's no wonder these women were so screwed up.

Meet the New Boss: Same As the Old Boss

The point is, male gatherers of the 1960's sexual revolution got used to the perks of free love. Not hard to comprehend. The problem we have today is that many men are content to view women in the same disrespectful manner as did the hippies back then. Unfortunately, women are still falling for gatherers. The problem however, is that when the going gets rough, because gatherer guy believes "she has too many expectations that don't match with my idea of fairness," it is all too easy for him to walk away. His feeling is, "I'll go my way and she can go her way."

To be sure, not all men act that badly, and I am not at all making that assertion. What I am saying is that our permissive society has created the "male gatherer" who does not understand why love and commitment actually matter. He thinks what matters is his freedom. After all, no one taught him how to respect women. His frustrated mom was probably working all of the time, and good ole' dad was MIA. Maybe his mom even lost the values she once had. Thus, the male gatherer had no positive role models to teach him what it means to become a grown-up. Consequently, he remains self-serving his entire life.

Shifting Focus

Common Reasons Why Men Don't Commit:

  • Males can get sex without marriage more easily than in times past
  • Males can enjoy the benefits of having a wife by cohabiting rather than marrying
  • Men want to avoid divorce and its financial risks
  • Men fear that marriage will require too many changes and compromises
  • Males face few social pressures to marry

Rutgers University's National Marriage Project

So naturally, it behooves the woman to shift her focus toward worthwhile men who actually enjoy pursuing a woman, who exhibit patience and caring, and who are willing to ignore the trend that presupposes men and women are exactly the same in every way.

Men and women are not exactly the same. Our bodies are different, our brains are wired differently, we communicate differently, we have different mannerisms, and in some cases, we have unique needs. But the male gatherer would have you believe this cannot be true, as that would not be fair or equal for him.

Long story short, women must become adept at letting the male gatherer go. In other words, she must learn to pare down the dating field. The smart woman values herself far too much to waste her time on a man who treats her as if she is worthless.

Finally, women must learn to become responsible for all the bad romantic choices she has made. She absolutely must take personal responsibility for her poor decisions; only then will she be able to turn her life around and thus begin to let go of the anger and frustration she had carried before. She will now be in a position to proactively guide her dating life in a manner that will finally allow her to experience true love and romance---the kind that has purpose, meaning, and staying power.

Confidence is sexy!
Confidence is sexy!

The smart woman does not play hard to get---she is hard to get. Let me explain. Playing hard to get suggests that a woman feigns disinterest in a man to whom she is attracted. Being hard to get has to do with the psyche of a woman who is selective about the kind of men she chooses to date in the first place.

Once a woman has determined she is interested in someone, she is free to capture his attention. However, she does this with care. She does not rush into a situation without first finding out what she is getting into. She learns to make better choices, always with long term consequences in mind. She becomes a more responsible and thoughtful woman.

A Word About Communication

Communication is a good thing, but some ladies mistakenly believe they must open up about every single thing that has ever happened to them "because that is only fair and honest." But the truth is, there is no reason for any woman or man to reveal everything about their feelings or their past relationships, in the beginning stages of dating.

We must open up at our own pace. In so doing, we are respecting our parameters and sense of privacy---and this is as it should be. A secure partner will respect your need to share your life stories at your own pace. In fact, no one really has to reveal anything that isn't relevant to the current situation. On the other hand, excessive secrecy in any individual is a red flag.

Dating: An Art

A woman who is thoroughly uncomplicated and too eager to please will not attract the love of a man who has the masculine fiber women crave. Her confidence as a woman, combined with her feminine spirit, is the magnet that consistently attracts truly good men her way. The woman who knows how to date well is very much at ease with her femininity. A worthwhile man will readily pursue a woman like her, but he is easily bored with a woman who does not provide him with any challenges whatsoever. A good man isn't looking for a doormat to walk over. The worthwhile man respects a woman who has backbone. Only gatherer's hate being challenged.

Positive dating also recognizes and appreciates the core differences between men and women. In truth, regardless of our cultural leanings, it's actually quite pleasurable to embrace the distinctions between male and female, rather than constantly fighting against them or, worse yet, attempting to act like the opposite gender. Masculine and feminine traits actually complement one another quite nicely---sort of like two pieces of a puzzle.

From now on, let the male gatherer do whatever he wants to do, just so long as he isn't doing it with you. Your responsibility as a woman is to turn your attention toward the man who shows you that he cares---through his actions. Listen to your woman's heart and mind. Only then will you be assured of love that will stand the test of time.

Truly.....Savvy

© 2012 Yves

Comments

Submit a Comment

  • savvydating profile image
    Author

    Yves 10 days ago

    Hi Randin.....Your commented is thoughtful. This piece refers to one type of man only and how some women have enabled them, and why they should stop doing that.

    I do not recommend women be "locked into one dimension and forsake endeavors..." As for compromising your femininity, I have no idea what would do that except working in the adult entertainment industry.

    While being feminine, I am not a "pink" girl. That is why I speak forthrightly about certain types of men, some of whom do live in a "dark shadow."

    But really, my article was meant to refer to changes since the 1970's. Social psychologist indicate that women are much less happy in dating these days. I've merely touched upon this fact.

    As for the blame game, sometimes we have to talk about unpleasant truths. This article would be disingenuous if I merely highlighted the positive. I've left that for other articles I've written.

    Anyway, you have a point, though it is a bit idealistic in this particular case. But I hear you and I am contemplating writing about the frustrations that men experience in dating (in another article).

  • profile image

    Randin 10 days ago

    I am a woman and I can say I find this piece to be a disservice to both men and women. I understand your point, but I find that even the most well intentioned message meant to empower one group will take on an unattractive hue when its background has been painted by a broad brush dipped in blame and generalizations of another group.

    I'm not saying some men can't foster the attitude you wrote about. I'm also not saying that some women can't read messages like this to mean they are entitled to utter devotion for the mere fact they are women. In essence, women can just as easily foster the same entitled attitude. Yes, I said it. Please tell me why it's so wrong for men to think they are special for no other reason than being men, yet it came across to me the concept was that women are special simply because they are women? I think we are both different and unique. Therefore, we are both special and should use that to complement each other in a BALANCED and FLUID way. Even if complementing each other was mentioned at the end, articles slanted in a certain direction on this topic tend to generate hostility, further widening the gap between men and women.

    Bad behavior is bad behavior, regardless of whether it is perpetrated by men or women. Men not valuing women, for whatever reason, is bad behavior. Women not valuing men, for whatever reason, is bad behavior.

    It did not escape me that you wrote not all men are like the gatherers you described. What didn't escape me either was that it appeared to come across to assume all women, except doormats in league with gatherers, are perfect as is. And yes, I read your one comment that both men and women are flawed, but that's not the impression I got from the article itself. Just so you know, I would take the same exception if this article had been reversed and women were blamed and men propped up.

    I am absolutely in favor of both men and women valuing themselves and each other. It only stands to reason if you value yourself someone else is going to have a mighty hard time devaluing you. I just don't think the way to send the message to value yourself is to devalue another group in print.

    Instead of focusing the blame on gatherer mentality as the problem for relationship woes, has it ever occurred to you that the real problem, not the solution, is perpetuating the idea that men and women are to be locked into rigid roles based on societal constructs for what is masculine and what is feminine? Would it not be more constructive and productive to acknowledge there are differences, but those differences are not without give and take? Also, before the wheels start turning, I will throw in that I am quite feminine in appearance for societal standards and am versed in what constitutes typical feminine behavioral characteristics. However, that does not mean I will be locked into one dimension and forsake endeavors that might appear to compromise my femininity.

    I am tired of being inundated by messages that have an undercurrent that only adds to the division between men and women based on some notion that if you don't follow the pink and blue paradigm set forth by self-appointed powers that be looking to capitalize on informing you of your shortcomings and how to fix them... you are doomed. They play the blame game, point fingers, and highlight what is negative instead of what is positive. It's a brilliant business model, to say the least. They promote the idea that you have to always be on guard for the "evil other side". Both men and women take turns being the evil one depending on who wrote the article. This article happened to cast men in the dark shadow.

    Men are not the enemy. Women are not the enemy. Reinforcing the idea they are, whether blatantly or subtly, is the enemy.

  • fpherj48 profile image

    Paula 2 weeks ago from Beautiful Upstate New York

    Yves, As well you know, wise lady, if not for our "spunk," we'd not be who, what nor where we are today! I'm feeling better each day, Thanks, my friend. Gotta keep on dancin til the music stops. Peace.

  • savvydating profile image
    Author

    Yves 2 weeks ago

    Hi Paula! Yep. If at first you don;t succeed...

    So nice to see you, girlfriend. I trust you are healing well and still behaving as spunky as ever. Love it!

  • fpherj48 profile image

    Paula 2 weeks ago from Beautiful Upstate New York

    Oh savvy girlfriend! How I love the way you tell it like it is. "Ourselves and our choices!!" Amen! Live, Love, Lose and LEARN!

  • savvydating profile image
    Author

    Yves 2 weeks ago

    Not dictating, James. Am simply letting women know about the different kinds of men out there. I speak from decades of experience. The thing is, worthwhile men who respect womankind actually agree with me. Those who speak badly about women disagree.

    I am not suggesting in this article that all men are bad and all women are good. We are all flawed, but not all of us have serious unresolved issues regarding the opposite sex. Those who do need serious therapy to become more balanced. The common denominator in all of our failed relationships or inability to have a healthy relationship always has to do with ourselves and our choices.

  • profile image

    James168 2 weeks ago

    Who are you to dictate what a man is?

  • savvydating profile image
    Author

    Yves 3 weeks ago

    James, I understand that most men, though not all, who comment here are MGTOW's or some version thereof. I also know that some of these men date while other's have not dated in 15 years or more due to having been rejected by a woman. Consequently, I understand that many of these men fear rejection so much, they are willing to forgo relationships rather than face their fears. They are stuck.

    Anyone who who subscribes to such a narrow philosophy/lifestyle is not a mature adult. Rather, they are like small boys who do not understand the concept of sacrifice and how taking risks allows a person to grow emotionally and to learn more about themselves.

    That being said, I've met a decent amount of men who are unafraid of rejection. They honestly like women and have chosen not let their fear get in the way of attaining their goal of having and ultimately maintaining meaningful relationship with one woman. Such men understand that love involves sacrifice and a give and take on both sides. Good men do not paint all women with one broad negative brush as do immature men.

    When all is said and done, neither men or women can understand the other entirely because we have not walked in their shoes. However, we can understand maturity vs. immaturity.

    If any man comes online to denigrate women, he has no right to my respect. They dish out mostly flawed views which are not well researched and then they wonder why I don't pander to them. The truth is that I understand them all too well, enough to know they have little if anything to offer a woman. Unfortunately, some women have very low self-esteem, so they engage with such men anyway. Women always come away from these relationships emotionally battered. Why? Because they've married or lived with a boy, not a man.

  • profile image

    James168 3 weeks ago

    It appears as though you may understand women, but you don’t care to understand men. Why is that?

  • savvydating profile image
    Author

    Yves 3 weeks ago

    James, Generally speaking, I save my explanations for those who have an actual interest in understanding women.

    " Gatherer" made spiteful comments about women, that is to say, broad speculations which are highly inaccurate. I save my writing energy for those who give a damn, not for those who just want to rant. Truth be told, his comment was not worth publishing, but I accept some of these angry rants to show women what kind of man they need to avoid. Luckily, there are still decent men out there, but Gatherer isn't one of them. He hasn't grown up yet. (Gatherers never do.) I feel sorry for them, but I won't get near them.

    And frankly, if you cannot see what is wrong with his comment, that's a problem---for you and your wife.

  • profile image

    James168 3 weeks ago

    Yves, I am curious why you think gatherer is wrong, and why the ad hominem attack ; I don’t think he cane across as a women hater. Thanks.

  • savvydating profile image
    Author

    Yves 3 weeks ago

    Your assessment is wrong. But it's typical of your average woman hater.

  • profile image

    Gatherer 3 weeks ago

    I read every word of what was written here. I'm left wondering what could have happened in a person's life to make them so unabashedly hateful and disrespectful toward men. There are a few things that stand out that should be addressed.

    The first is the theme through the entire article that men were put on this earth to provide for women. This ancient notion is being renounced in stronger and stronger terms everyday and is, in fact, wrong. The wants, desired, feelings and needs of men are 100% as valuable as that of women on a societal level (or should be), and the only thing that needs matter to an individual man; women's needs being entirely optional. A man's purpose is not to earn a living ("hunting") while the woman stays at home enjoying a much simpler and easier life ("gathering"). His purpose is what he says it is. A wonderful byproduct of equality is men are no longer hitched to the domestic plow but are free to pursue the activities which they find fulfilling. As we now see a very large percentage of men choose to not don the shackles of domestic servitude.

    I took particular exception to, "he is the guy who lets the women come to him. He does not pursue women. He lives solely for his own pleasure. His take is, "If women want equal rights, let her prove herself to me." It's HIS life. He is entitled to live that life anyway he chooses. His value is not determined, either as a man or a member of society, by what he provides to women. It is perfectly fine for a man to be a gatherer. You associate all manner of bad traits to "gatherers", but only if the "gatherer" is a man. If the "gatherer" is a woman then it's perfectly fine for her to lay about expecting men to come to her, not pursuing men and living solely for her pleasure. This is what is known as intellectual dishonesty. We, as a society, are rejecting this notion.

    Second, your entire article is about how women should feel entitled to have their cake and eat it, too. Women should be able to benefit fully from equality and sexual freedom but still sit on the highest of pedestals when it comes to dating. These thoughts are incongruous and are being rejected by society. It seems the real struggle in this article is your struggle with being left behind as dating rituals modernized.

    Next, the statement, "The smart woman does not play hard to get---she is hard to get." She is at home, alone being "hard to get." If that's what she wants then good for her. If that isn't what she wants then she needs to embrace the radical notion that women are not entitled to a lifetime of romance, commitment, attention and support from a man simply because she was born a woman. You are doing absolutely no service whatsoever to women by publishing articles like this. They can either get with the program or get another cat.

    In the same vein, you didn't mention that women need to do a lot of work on themselves in order to be date-able. I can't tell you how many women I come across who have no interests. Let me clarify what that means: lots of women are interested in Facebook, celebrity gossip and shopping, those do not count as interests in my book. When I talk about history, current events, economics, science, technology or any other subject I get blank stares. It's almost a little game I have to play to find out if there is any actual thinking going on inside her head. Now, a quick preface, women will have no interest in or understanding of these subjects but have the strongest opinions; it's absurd, but I swear it's true. Women really need to step up their game.

    On the subject of date-ability: another artifact of the sexual revolution is that women are sexually free (even if men are not) to have as many or as few lovers as they wish. The average woman of today takes full advantage of this by hopping in a new bed with dizzying frequency. Of course, she then comes across the "icing on her cake" and is unable to disconnect her brain (or her Facebook page) from her prior exploits, is an emotional train wreck and views sex as a commodity to be bartered away in exchange for his "good" behavior.

    If a woman want's "commitment" then she needs to 1) be worthy of commitment (just being a female isn't enough), 2) be able to provide something of equal value in exchange for his commitment, and 3) be ready to work to convince a man that she's worth it.

    Why are women frustrated with dating? Who cares.

    ***Hat tip to the comments.*** Great for you guys!!!

  • savvydating profile image
    Author

    Yves 4 weeks ago

    271Chevy...I hadn't read your comment until today. Your analysis of my beliefs is inaccurate, but I do sense your frustration. I've published your comments for others to see, nevertheless.

  • profile image

    Z71Chevy 4 weeks ago

    I guess the clean and concise analysis of your above piece that I had written yesterday was REJECTED from this thread because you are not interested in addressing both sides of the "dating crisis"; but rather, you are firmly entrenched in views that usually demonize men and usually deify women.

  • profile image

    Z71Chevy 4 weeks ago

    Yves, I don't think you're above article could POSSIBLY be any more biased than it is. To be fair, you did try your best to disguise many one-sided opinions, but a SAVVY reader can detect your gender bias with little effort. Since women are "ever the adapters", as you say, perhaps this issue will be resolved when your next article appears. And what man WOULN'T want to be thought of as merely "a great guy...the icing on the cake....but still OPTIONAL", as you stated. WELL, I can tell you quite confidently, that no one, male or female, wants to be thought of as "optional". And I believe that it is this callous, pompous attitude on the part of modern women that has many of these "great/optional/icing-men" running the other way.

    There is also a clear trend of assigning the MAJORITY of the "blame" to good 'ole men. I did notice that you counseled women not to date "a gatherer"; and naturally you advised women to be aware of their innate self-worth, to increase that self-worth through the realization of goals and dreams, and to hold out for a great guy. You also advised women to own up to their mistakes, such as becoming involved with "a gatherer" type of man.

    But that's ABOUT ALL that women need apologize for. From there on out, the blame rests SQUARELY on the shoulders of men alone. It became apparent to me that, in your view, the 1960's was an era of revolution whose excesses could be explained MOSTLY by the folly of MEN; as though women of the time had no "stake in the claim", as though women of the time WEREN'T declaring their independence from the "harsh rule of the white patriarchy" using the vehicles of "sex, drugs, and rock 'n' roll".

    To be clear, I am asserting that you, Yves, are taking a PURELY feministic stance while explaining the roots of our modern dating situation; you are NOT taking a HUMANISTIC, balanced stance. You assert that men need to "step up their game" and "pursue women"; and while you ALSO assert that women need to "step up their game" also, you are mostly calling for women reject "gatherer" types, essentially. And that's FINE AND GOOD.

    But your feminism BLINDS YOU from seeing that EVEN THE "GREAT GUYS" are losing interest in dating modern American women. Even "the great guys" are beginning to see that what feminism ACTUALLY is, is a roadmap for women to "have it all". AGAIN, THAT'S FINE AND GOOD. But from where many modern men are standing, this "have it all" mentality has made women voraciously greedy, and it has ALSO exempted women from taking responsibility for the LARGE role that they have to play in our "dating situation". Feminists have clamored for a certain disguised type of male degredation for decades now, and it SEEMS as though your wish has FINALLY COME TRUE.

    Now, Feminism has aided in breaking up many American families, and has SILENTLY advocated single parent households through its messages that "men aren't REALLY necessary, because women are strong", (sort of like your "icing on the cake" analogy.) Women have been supported in having "x, y and z" rights, but when there is a PROBLEM, it's often seen as a MAN'S fault, not a woman's. And now that women are GRADUATING from Highschool, Colleges and Universities at a much better rate than men, it is ONCE AGAIN "the fault of men"; (never mind gender quotas, never mind all of the PUBLIC SUPPORT agencies and outlets available to women that ARE NOT available to men.) Young American girls are brought up as "entitled, beautiful, brilliant and gifted little goddesses", while American boys are treated to NO SUCH "SPECIAL CLUB". The issues of women and girls COMMAND THE SPOTLIGHT-(like Breast-Cancer Awareness, just an off-the-top example), but issues of men and boys are simply written off in hit pieces like yours as "a man's problem".

    So maybe once you and your "feminist ilk" actually start GIVING A DAMN about men as something other than "the icing on (your perfect) cake", men might start to BELIEVE YOU ARE EVEN WORTH PURSUING.

  • savvydating profile image
    Author

    Yves 4 weeks ago

    Tom...Something tells me your relationships don't last long. In any event, smart, pretty and fit women fall for "successful" losers all the time. My goal is to help women to quit doing that. If he doesn't have a loving heart, it doesn't matter how much money he makes or how good he looks. He still has zero sex-appeal as far as I am concerned.

  • profile image

    Tom hubert 4 weeks ago

    This article was just dandy. But the simplest explanation is the best one. We all want a partner that will prioritize their life in a way that is compatible with our own. Simple as that.

    The only difference here is women are jumping on that bandwagon now. Men have been the earners and career go getters for quite some time now.

    Think about it...

    A person is going to forgo years out of their young lives to pursue a successful career, get a college degree, and build a successful life...only to compromise and be with a mate that doesn't offer them what they desire?

    Are you kidding me?

    Nope. Now, women are experiencing the same issues...

    Get an education, work hard, provide a stable financial life for yourself...then give yourself...to a beer belly having ignoramus???

    Nope.

    Men want what we've always wanted: a pretty, fit, relatively smart woman to have our backs. We don't care how much she makes. Case and point: have you ever seen a beautiful, fit woman working a McDonald's drive through? If so, she wasn't single

  • savvydating profile image
    Author

    Yves 3 months ago

    Hi Frank....Lovely to see you. No doubt, divorce is a strain on both men and women. My own mother had an exceptionally hard time of it, financially and emotionally.

    In any event, I do speak from a female perspective, given that is what I know best. But as you may have noticed, this does anger some men. By the way, your two cents are always welcome here. I'm pretty sure your lawyers will never need it. ;)

  • Frank Atanacio profile image

    Frank Atanacio 3 months ago from Shelton

    savvy, you are indeed savvy.. So many questions answered and so many new questions derived. Articles like this one puts me on a fence. I agree when you stated that communication is good, but sometimes people not just women take that a step too far... divorce can be a strain on both men and women.. mostly women.. but it affects everything around the couple splitting.. I can go on and add my two cents on everything you talked about.. but I won't I'll keep my two cents... I might need it to pay the lawyers should I ever get a divorce.. Fantastic article

  • savvydating profile image
    Author

    Yves 3 months ago

    Hello Pragmatic, in general, divorce does not reward women. Most women have a difficult time making ends meet after a divorce. Gold diggers are not the norm in everyday life. And shame on men who resent paying child support for their own children. You are a father of two daughters. I'm pretty sure you would warn them about men whose motto is "I can get laid just as easily..."

    Furthermore, stating that marriage is dangerous is downright laughable. Have these men never served in a real battle? Women know instinctively that life is more dangerous for her, given all the rape, molestation and other violence that women experience all over the world.

    Anyway, once a man talks about "getting laid easily" I pretty much check out. I have no interest in such men.

    James, you have my answer. I may delete this post after awhile. PairedLife doesn't appreciate it when men speak about women in such a sexually demeaning manner, as did Syntax.

    Syntax, you heard me the first time. By the way, most women allow men to visit their children. Unfortunately, not all men make the time to visit. It would seem you've drunk the MGTOW koolaid. Nevertheless, it's okay for you not to marry, and it's okay for me to warn women about men who use women.

    Believe me, I don't scratch my head over missing men. Lol. People who really know me would find that hilarious. As my fine son would say..."Peace out."

  • profile image

    PragmaticOne 3 months ago

    I'm a conservative WASP'y male, still married (only once) with two grown kids (girls). Grew up in the late 60's/early 70's in a comfortable suburban environment in a two-parent household. Your article is revealing and on point, and I must say that I agree with your opinion concerning today's younger men in our society. An increasingly larger percentage of them are just not able/willing to make the commitment necessary to create an environment within which to successfully raise a family. To be sure, some of this is due to the manner in which these young men have been raised and the lack of proper role models. I think the social environment also has a lot to do with this dilemma, meaning all the information that is constantly bombarding our youth through various media sources. It seems to me that the message being conveyed is often not one that supports boys developing into responsible young men who are willing to step up to the plate and do the right thing. Having said all this, I will say that the point of view presented by Syntax Attack has some basis in fact. Whether or not you agree with him, he has a point. Removing some of the bias and injustice in our family court system will go a long way towards restoring faith in the institution of marriage in this country. Divorce should not be seen by young men as a resolution to a problem that is heavily weighted in favor of women.

  • savvydating profile image
    Author

    Yves 6 months ago

    Smarmy...Young women are still learning about life and it takes them awhile to know what they want and what is important. Same with young men. Meanwhile, MGTOW focus on money all of the time. Have you never given any thought to how much women sacrifice? Because we do. Listen, this article is not about money. It's about how to avoid men who are incapable of commitment, whether they are gatherers or MGTOW or just plain narcissistic jerks. If a woman wants a lifetime partner, she won't get that with a cynical man who thinks all women care about is money. That's just not true. Besides, even back in the 60's men had to pay child support. Today, some women pay alimony. Meanwhile, the children of said marriages have to trudge back and forth from mom's house to dad's house because they're splitting everything down the middle.

    People need to grow up and realize that sacrifice and risk is part of life.

    Otherwise, we simply remain children. I hear your "warning" but romance and true love isn't dead yet. If it comes to that, women will adopt children and live on their own, making their own money, kind of like many of us do now. Sure, it's wonderful to meet a good man, but if all men turn cynical one day, we'll do without them.

    I've never had that problem of being desperate for a male who acts like an idiot. If he can't act like a respectful adult, I have no interest. Therefore, I am here to teach women how to avoid women-haters and learn how to spot a man who cares and who shows it.

    I take it you guys want guarantees, but that's not real life. Truth is, unless we become stronger, better, and more moral people, then we probably have no business getting married in the first place. If a man or a woman continuously has relationship problems, then the common denominator comes down to who they are and how they treat people. I am sorry, but the views of MGTOW is skewed. That is why they can't sustain a relationship. They point fingers but never look at themselves. Frankly, all the hate speech and the whining is getting old. I've seen the vile things they say about women on their forums. Most of it is trash. If these men are that afraid, then all I can say is, Good Luck. Their lives will be lonely, ultimately, but that's their perogative.

    Do I tell women to clean up their act as well? Yes, I do.

  • savvydating profile image
    Author

    Yves 6 months ago

    Although Americans are very generous when it comes to charity, we have developed a culture of me, me, me. I agree that selfishness is a big problem, Sam.

  • profile image

    Sam-e 6 months ago

    Yves,

    I see what you are saying. I agree that good, virtuous women can definitely be a catalyst for a men's spiritual and emotional growth and evolution. Unfortunately, in this society, truly virtuous women (and men) are few and far in between.

    I think the real problem for both men and women is our fractured Western society/culture that breeds selfishness and toxic, individualistic narcissism.

  • savvydating profile image
    Author

    Yves 6 months ago

    HI Thomas....Thank you for telling me about your friends. They sound like truly decent & giving people. I am surprised that the handsome guy can't get a date. Strange. On the other hand, it's not like a woman is going to knock on his door and announce that she wants to date him.

    What I am saying is that if they never try, the results are obvious. They will remain alone, without the company of women.

    I actually do understand that some men are incredibly shy and sensitive to rejection. No one ever said that love is easy to come by or that good women or men, with whom we are compatible, are standing on every street corner. But if we don't try, we don't get.

    Furthermore. I continue to reject the reasons that MGTOW give for avoiding women. These excuses---are only that. Women are fearful too, mostly of potential violence or cheating.

    Anyway, the most obvious problem here is that MGTOW take the wrong approach. Their expectations are unrealistic. They need to approach dating with a more relaxed attitude. My article: "Savvydating 101" might prove helpful.

    Thanks for checking in, Thomas. Nice seeing you again. :)

  • savvydating profile image
    Author

    Yves 6 months ago

    Dear ding tam...I couldn't have said it any better. Thank You and I appreciate you!

  • profile image

    dinh tam 6 months ago

    I'll give a thump up to this article.

    I believe the law in America about child support mainly to protect the child. "a gatherer" tends to just have sex, have fun and walk away without taking responsibility. "If you don't want to do the time don't do the crime." if you don't want to pay child support. Don't have sex. (Although, there are not nice woman out there who trapped the man and have kids for child support) so either men or women - before trying to blame this person that person, you should blame yourself first. But don't give up just yet - you still can change to be better and learn from your mistake. This article gave a lot of good points. Great article. Thank you very much :)

  • savvydating profile image
    Author

    Yves 7 months ago

    "...armed forces ready to deal violence and death on her behalf."

    How dramatic.

    This isn't North Korea.

    Also, I've spoken of the benefits for men in the comments section before. If you are that interested, Google "Why married men are happier, healthier and live longer lives than non-married men." The trick is in choosing well and taking self-responsibility. If you don't do that, it's on you. I say the same thing to women. Good luck, Jetson.

  • fpherj48 profile image

    Paula 7 months ago from Beautiful Upstate New York

    Back at ya, Lady! :) When I grow up, I want to be you! LOL (smile)

  • savvydating profile image
    Author

    Yves 7 months ago

    Paula, you and I have seen the good, bad, ugly and every other

    emotion pertaining to life, but we still choose love, in one form or another.

    Thank you for your graciousness. I know that you know where I'm coming from. I appreciate everything you stand for. You're quite a woman!

  • fpherj48 profile image

    Paula 7 months ago from Beautiful Upstate New York

    Did I just hear my girlfriend Yves say, "Behavioral Psychologist?" Oh dear, I see George went back and forth with you a few times. It actually turned out to be an interesting conversation.

    Needless to put in print, but of course I agree with your comments. Oh, and Kudos for your sincere & positive efforts at trying to help George see the light (or at least check his perceptions) I'm always proud of you, as well as your intelligence and grace.

    I'll go out on a limb here and say that you certainly gave JG much to contemplate, which I'd bet any amount, he's doing right this minute. Perhaps you have saved another sad fella from a lonely, boring life, without the company of a female.

    You do splendid work, Yves!.........Paula

  • savvydating profile image
    Author

    Yves 7 months ago

    No one has any assurances. The "Red Pill" argument is based upon a film which failed to deliver...

    If I chose to live that way, I would hate all men just as you despise all women. No thanks!

    Some decent men exist. If you choose not to be one of them, then God help you. I'm not into Blue or Red pills. Life is more meaningful than that. If you want a counter-argument, look elsewhere. I am not playing that game.

    That being said, you write very well. Some of your verses are like poetry. Perhaps you are more idealistic than you realize. Good luck to you, Jetson.

  • profile image

    Jetson George 7 months ago

    Perspective is a curious thing. I'm sure there's some philosophy or psychology 101 topic about whether reality is reality or if perception creates individual reality. Probably drags the spiritualists into it.

    Opinions and emotions are dangerously unreliable things. I'll stick with observable data whose results can be compared. The observable data on the current balance of the sexes is damning.

    "Think happy thoughts" is no way to address the injustice of the current legal system or the society that promotes it. It's also why MGTOW and MRA's call it "The Red Pill", compliments of The Matrix film. One drops the happy thoughts, the desires and just takes a good, long look around at how things are. Yes, it is all very negative. Comes from a lack of much good to be said about it. But the numbers don't lie.

    Here, you take the initiative. I've carried on about the demonstrable reasons why a man would be a fool to enter into a relationship in today's society; all about what's in it for Her and was assurances She has and the lack of the opposite. Offer your counter argument. We can compare the risks, rewards and real world results.

    What is in it for Him and what assurances does He have?

  • savvydating profile image
    Author

    Yves 7 months ago

    Sooooo.....I take it you're a glass half empty kind of a guy.

    Seriously, Jetson, you could do with a dose of optimism and perspective. Life can be fun. Cheer up a little. You're an intelligent guy. Why live in misery? It's not a good choice. You may not need a psychiatrist, but a behavioral psychologist could give you some perspective.

  • profile image

    Jetson George 7 months ago

    See, that's part of the "frustration". Men are demonstrably oppressed by western society, brutally unequal in the court of law, expected to be the aggressor in courtship yet endlessly demonized for their "toxic masculinity", being labeled creeps and rapists for existing, failing women's 80-20 standards and falling short of the Rule of 6 - 6 figures, 6 feet, 6 pack, 6 inches and only when she turns 35+ does she deign to give that other 80% of men so much as the time of day. Now that her beauty and fertility are about to hit The Wall she decides its time to "settle" for Mr. Good Enough. She has no interest in loving him, only what he provides. It's why she "settled" for him, as a resource.

    And when men express their frustration backed by the cruel facts of society, they are told that they need "psychiatric help". Heaven forbid if data were compared and a rational conclusion deduced from it.

    All MGTOWs want is equality under the law so they can actually AFFORD to take the risk of getting involved with a woman. As for women chasing after men who despise them, that's just the natural result of the 80-20 rule. See Susan Walsh's "Sex and The Pareto Principle" study.

  • savvydating profile image
    Author

    Yves 7 months ago

    Jetson, You have summed up the misery of MGTOW. Everything is disastrous and catastrophic in that world. Apparently, they believe women are to blame. It's really sad. I wish more of you would get psychiatric help. I suggest the same for women who continually chase after men who despise women. Hence, my reason for writing this hub. Choose well. That applies to both men and women.

  • profile image

    Jetson George 7 months ago

    Cost and risk assessment of a potential relationship does not make the partner a "product". It is the simple question of "If I get involved with this person, what is likely to occur?" Opinions be damned, the cold statistics are brutal enough.

    I've done my homework, feel free to google these numbers up. The divorce rate hovers just below 50%. That's an outright coin toss. Women initiate divorce at an astounding 69%. When she leaves, she will take the house, she will take your children and she will take your future income - possibly for life. She can even force him to pay child support for children that are-not-his. Armed government enforcers will be dispatched to ensure she gets all of that, at gunpoint if need be. If he resists, he will be beaten into submission and thrown in a cage, or killed. When he asks "What's with this raw deal?" he is told that he needs to man-up. And just for some salt in the wound, 7 of 10 suicides are male.

    A modern man looks at this, looks at "her" and asks "What's in it for me?" Her "companionship"? For whatever that's worth. What IS it worth? More and more men examine that list and decide "It's not worth THAT." Heck, if he is fool enough to marry her, he might not get that "companionship" either; know plenty of miserable, celibate married men. You can bet that no armed government enforcers are going to show up if SHE stops providing.

    Of course men are increasingly suicidal. Why not? Once you have abandoned any thought of finding a wife or starting a family, all that's left is creature comforts and entertainment to pass the time until you die. That's not going to inspire a man to engage in society or even spare a kind thought for it. It's not as if he is invested in it at that point. No legacy or next generation for him to care about.

    Yea, it's easy to see a lot of hatred when examining MGTOW. Faced with such prospects, can you blame them? Can you really? They are always being told of THEIR shortcomings, their "inner hatred, unresolved issues and addiction to porn". The girls in their lives are made of so much sugar, spice and everything nice that the men in theirs would rather die alone. Or kill themselves. Then the women ask where have all the good men gone?

    WOMEN are frustrated and confused about men and dating? Makes a man want to laugh all the way to his grave.

  • savvydating profile image
    Author

    Yves 7 months ago

    Jetson....While I appreciated your first comment, I cannot agree with this one. First of all, women are not products to assess, and I do not appreciate that MGTOW speaks of women in this demeaning fashion. It is almost as if the MGTOW movement wants society to fail so that you can shout, "See, this is what happens when women demand equal rights." We are all human. None of us are products or animals, and none of us want to be treated as such.

    As for Japan, the men who don't marry there have decided to do so because they have seen their fathers work 18+ hour days, seven days a week because that is how business arrangements are set up in Japan.

    Furthermore, Japanese men generally do not hate women. They have many women friends. What they hate is that Japanese society made their fathers, quite literally, work themselves to death.

    As for the MGTOW movement in the U.S., these are generally men who blame women for their problems. Yet the movement in Japan and the US are not the same. The men who forsake traditional work in Japan are generally effeminate. They like their games and their computers, and the occasional outing with friends. Working like a dog does not appeal to them.

    In the U.S., the MGTOW are vastly different. These men often have good careers, are not metro-sexual, and they almost always despise women for one reason or another. Furthermore, it appears that as time goes on, they tend to become suicidal, not because of women, but because of their inner hatred, unresolved issues and their addiction to porn.

  • profile image

    Jetson George 7 months ago

    I've been watching the growing MGTOW movement/philosophy with great interest and agree with a lot they have to say. They see all that cost, risk, stacked courts, suicide rates and worst of all, they remember their fathers and wouldn't wish that on anyone. The odds are so bad that dying alone looks like the preferable alternative.

    Of course, this is a giant, generational time bomb compliments of unfunded social security and the like. Japan is the canary in the coal mine and everyone is watching to see how their economy handles the sharp drop in population as western civilization slowly suicides like "the beautiful ones" in that old giant mouse colony experiment.

    As you note, many point out that because of this male disengagement, "society has a problem". "Society" looks at all those scorned, demonized cisgender males and demands that they "man up" to save society. To sacrifice themselves for everyone else's benefit. From the deep shadows of their browbeaten poverty, disrespect and inequality under the law they whisper back, "No.".

  • savvydating profile image
    Author

    Yves 7 months ago

    Interesting. I know full well that women "of a certain age" give up, but that's only because they've already had their marriage with children, and sex simply isn't that big of a deal anymore. But when 29 year old men give up, then society has a problem. One of those problems is fake online "non-relationships. " Thanks for writing in Jetson. Loved the Jetson cartoons, by the way.

  • profile image

    Jetson George 7 months ago

    I'll let Aaron Clarey say it all from his own article titled "Yes, Men Do Leave the Market" Just an excerpt.

    But what is becoming a more frequent phenomenon is a question these girls ask;

    "Where are all the guys?"

    I never paid much attention to this, as it has always been the case that men just eschew dance classes, but it wasn't until an older dance student of mine perhaps refined the question a bit and made it more pointed. It wasn't so much "Where are all the guys," as much as it was;

    "I just get the feeling there aren't any men anymore. Not just in dance class, but where are all the men from all the various social activities? They make up half the population, but I can't find any single guys to date. They can't all be married, even my female friends are running into this mysterious disappearance of men. Do they like stop trying after a while and just stay home?"

    And that's when I realized what she was asking.

    "Do you mean, do men give up and don't bother trying to find women any more?" I clarified.

    She said, "Yes. So do they?"

    "Yes" I answered.

    She was somewhat surprised at my response. She said, "so they just give up? They don't go out anymore? Don't they want to find somebody? Anybody?!"

    "Yeah, more or less."

    "That's crazy! How do they ever expect to find anybody?"

    I replied, "Well...they don't."

    Regardless, the point was her reaction surprised me in return to see this was that shocking of a revelation to her. I always thought it was kind of common knowledge, men do indeed give up after a while, but apparently it's not.

  • savvydating profile image
    Author

    Yves 7 months ago

    Great observations, Daniel. I agree with you on all counts. As for online dating, it's tricky, in that there is too much emphasis on looks, and it is easy to misread someone's meaning online...

  • profile image

    DanielLetourneau 7 months ago

    While I agree that there is room for traditional gender roles in society, we really need to assess and define relationship. Women are not nearly as limited as monogamy in 2017. In the same way men can openly enjoy sex, women are enjoying more freedom. There are many men and women enjoying varied ways to organize relationships. It is true that heterosexual dating is largely a mess right now, and that what you are suggesting, would certainly help. That said, technology's influence on dating is worth more than a cursory glance. It has many ramifications that are making long term committed relationships seem less important. Values shift.

  • savvydating profile image
    Author

    Yves 7 months ago

    happycamper....If you'll notice, I did not say that women do as much asking out as men, but they are often rejected by the man after a first date. Also, when it comes to online dating, some women get virtually no interest from men. Furthermore, quite a few women find they are the temporary "stand-in" until the guy finds something "better." That kind of rejection is very hurtful. Because you are not a woman, I understand that you cannot begin to realize the amount of heartache that women go through because of selfish men. (And I am not saying that all men are selfish.) Anywau, this is why I do not always show much sympathy for men who comlain about being rejected. Women are rejected constantly.

  • profile image

    happycamper10 7 months ago

    Savvydating, you wrote a couple of weeks ago, "women are rejected just as much as men." You cannot be serious. I have had exactly one woman ask me out in my entire single life - and I accepted. And, I would imagine the men participating in this thread have had similar, lopsided, experiences. There is nowhere near the level of rejection for women, because there is nowhere near the level of asking by women. Although I agree this is changing as men and women become more equal, it is still unquestionably the expectation - and the reality - that men do the asking.

  • savvydating profile image
    Author

    Yves 7 months ago

    Thomas, Good advice for Yannick.

    Also, I am sorry to hear about your friend. I hope he overcomes his depression. There is good help out there. Or it could be he just needs to take up an outdoor activity. The vitamin D from the sun does wonders for the body & exercise releases endorphins that make us feel happy.

  • Thomas42 profile image

    Thomas42 7 months ago

    Yannik.

    One of my best friends from High school married a women with two young girls. Together they had a son. She cheated on him, charged up a fortune on his credit cards and left him with three children, one still an infant.

    He spent the next 20 years being miserable, at first he had to work all those hours of overtime to pay off the bills. He virtual disappeared.

    After a few years he got a handle on the debt, but he still continued the same pattern of work and home, gave up on his hobbies and interests. I can't get him out the door. The two girls are grown and gone. His son just moved to Michigan and now he's alone.

    While it's true that you can be single and happy, forgive me for judging you but I don't think you are.

    You need to let go of the anger, forgive if not forget the wrongs that have been done to you and move forward. It's advice that has been given to me. I know I have had trouble taking it myself, but I do know it's good advice.

    It's ok to be single, it's ok to live as you wish.

    Good luck to you.

  • savvydating profile image
    Author

    Yves 7 months ago

    Yannick....Some men and women are meant to be together, while others are not. I am sorry this woman you loved turned out to be so selfish.

    If you are happier alone, that is fine. However, age 45 is pretty young to give up on love. Please don't fall into the trap of believing that all women are bad. Some people have character and morals, and others do not. Once you feel more comfortable with your growth, you will gain a more balanced perspective regarding what constitutes a healthy relationship. I truly wish you happiness.

  • Yannick Messaoud profile image

    Yannick Messaoud 7 months ago

    Men and women are simply not fit to be with each other, the world today is that screwed up. I was with a women that i loved for 10y she left me telling me she never really cared for me, after all i had done for her, and she left me for a man at her job, sold the house and was heart broken while she was having fun. I have been single for 4years now i am 45 i am well built tall i train 6 times per week i have a good job my own condo. All the women i met and in my age bracket are confused, some saw me telling me i look amazing etc, but they never wanted to commit, they where very positive and willing until the last minute where they flaked and i been told i am sorry i am confused. I stop seeking women and i hope the men that read this do the same, men need to man up and become men, i cook, clean, and wash do everything my laundry and so much more alone. What possible gain would i get from going out with a single mom who is confused and most of the time cannot do nothing..... i am very active and most women i met can't keep up.... also everyone i meet are either separated divorced or having issues with there couple, i don't want none of this. Men have become weak, needy, attention seeking and yes beta. All in all i used to think i needed a good women beside me, but i found out i needed to work on myself to learn and become a better person, to shake that mentality that i needed a women to be happy, and to mature and not be afraid to be on my own. Develop passions that i can do alone and in today world there are lots of this.

  • savvydating profile image
    Author

    Yves 7 months ago

    HI Thomas, Just keep in mind that the woman does not have to be that much younger, if at all. If she is in her mid to late 30's or early 40's, that only means she has to have more doctor's visits than a pregnant woman in her 20's. Don't give up! Yoleen and I are rooting for you.;)

  • Thomas42 profile image

    Thomas42 7 months ago

    Thanks Yoleen, I'm not really into "sports" other than I'm an avid cyclist. I used to hike and camp a lot but it's not something that you do to socialize and meet people lo. My third shift job limits my social activities, I did join a cycling group but it's mostly guys and a few of their wives and girlfriends no one single.

    I'm an engineer so my circle of friends tends to be mostly men and there aren’t many women who share my interests.

    Although I'm in really good physical shape and as far as I know would have no problem being a father (my grandpa was nearly 60 when my uncle was born) it would mean finding a women significantly younger which is hard to do.

    I'm trying to be more social when I have the time, right now I'm pretty busy between work and school. I barely have time to keep the lawn mowed.

    I'll keep trying and think about what you said.

    Thanks again Savvy and Yoleen.

  • savvydating profile image
    Author

    Yves 7 months ago

    Men can have children at any time. You could have children 10 years from now and still be active enough to run around with them. I'm sure you would be a wonderful dad. Don't give up, Thomas. We've all suffered rejection. So what! As my mom used to say, their loss. Lol.

  • savvydating profile image
    Author

    Yves 7 months ago

    Fantastic advice, Say Yes! Truly, you're a special woman, my friend.

  • Say Yes To Life profile image

    Yoleen Lucas 7 months ago from Big Island of Hawaii

    "So don't judge me to harshly for not being good at the "game" It's a game I hated and never wanted to play."

    Thomas42 - that's the reason why you have problems. You hate it!

    If you really want to date women, can you find ways to make the process enjoyable? Example: engage in your favorite sport, and meet women in that venue.

    Suppose I were a man, and loved ice hockey. I could join a local team, and meet figure skating women at the rink.

    If you love football, perhaps you can play it and meet cheerleaders.

    Either way, keep it fun. Don't go straight-on looking for a wife (she shouldn't be straight-on looking for a husband, either). Just hang out with lots of women - and men - and see what turns up!

  • Thomas42 profile image

    Thomas42 7 months ago

    I doubt if my standards are all that high, I don't go for the big breasted model tand prefer a tomboy or the girl next door type I have something in common with.

    Other than being physically fit and active I don't really have much of a preference looks wise. Dating a women I have no attraction to is pointless and would only lead to disappointment on both sides.

    As Steve mentioned about his friends I've never been on an internet chat room or anything like that. I never understood why men would like that. It's like looking at pictures of food when you're hungry.

    I do have some issues, but who doesn't? I certainly don't expect any human to be baggage free. Most of mine are simply from being alone all these years and dealing with rejection which isn't good for anyone’s self esteem and has left me more than a little depressed.

    I have some fears of being hurt, again who doesn't, but in fact I'm a naturally trusting individual who likes to see the best in people, my fears developed over time and experience with good reason. They are by no means unreasonable or insurmountable.

    40's may not be "old" but it's seriously pushing it for having a healthy child and it's not like I'd find someone to marry and start a family with next week. Given my track record it could be years (if ever) before I find a date much less a serious relationship. I've only dated 3 women and only one long term. I don't consider this "catastrophic expectations" I'm simply predicting future outcomes based on past experiences.

    Anyway, thanks for the advice, I'll keep reading. I'm not quiet ready to give up like a lot of my friends have, but I am trying to be realistic about my chances and I know time is not on my side.

  • savvydating profile image
    Author

    Yves 7 months ago

    Hi Steve...If the girl asked you out, then she would very much like a relationship. Women say they don't need a man because, in today's culture, women don't want to come off as too traditional or needy in any way. Unfortunately, a fair amount of men these days

    judge women really hard for wanting equal rights. Frankly, most women simply want equal pay in the workforce and they just want to be respected. That's it.

    You are much wiser than your friends. Research has shown that Internet porn actually destroys a man's ability to interact with human women. The truth is that men addicted to porn live sad and lonely lives. They become depressed and suisudal. You don't want that. Kudos to you for having more sense. Follow your parents example and you will have a rich and happy life, with a real woman and real children who live you to pieces. You're a smart young man!

  • savvydating profile image
    Author

    Yves 7 months ago

    Thomas, someone in my family has the same problem. He has two problems which he has yet to recognize.

    1) His standards are exceptionally high. He's nice looking in a way, but he's no George Clooney, yet he feels he should have a Pamela Anderson. Frankly, he puts too much focus on looks. That is not to say that is your problem.

    Secondly, he is suspicious of women. He doesn't really trust them to not break his heart. Furthermore, he fiends too much money trying to impress women. Finally, he hasn't looked at himself very seriously, although he insists he is a "good man." The truth is that he has some issues to resolve. You might not be any of those things, Thomas. My point is that lots of men and women feel insecure for one reason or another.

    You are barely in your 40's. In so way does that constitute "older." You really have to find a way to relax a bit. I recommend that you read my article on Savvy Dating 101.

    Anyway, I think you have what is called " Catastrophic Expectations. Look it up.

    You'll be fine. It is just a matter of realizing that your fears have been blown out of proportion. My best thoughts are with you, Thomas. You can have a successful relationship. I truly believe that. ;)

  • profile image

    Steve825 7 months ago

    It's interesting to read things from a female perspective...the dating world seems to be one big confused mess at present.

    I'm a guy in his early 30's and was asked out for the first time ever recently by a woman of the same age. To be honest it didn't go too well as one of the first things she said on the date was "that I don't really need a man"... not a great start.

    Talking a bit, I gathered she was a real 3rd wave feminist but was torn between being lonely, desperately wanting children and wanting to be seen stronger & more capable than any man, so much so that she couldn't even admit to needing a man in her life even one she had asked out.

    As I said to her I want a woman in my life who needs me just as much I need her, it's supposed to be a partnership. Feminism has done some strange things to the dating world for women but so has Porn on the men's side.

    I'm the only one of my friends to still be asking women out, all my mates who are similar age to me have stopped dating completely and spend all their money & time on Internet cam girl sites like Chaturbate, chatting and having live sex shows with the girls. Even some of my friends teenage(15'ish) lads who are still at school are spending more time talking/playing with cam-girls than they do talking to "real girls"... they say real girls just can't compete with the Internet.

    I'm not saying sex-workers shouldn't have jobs etc as I like boobs as much as anyone but Internet porn is definitely changing the dating landscape.

    Well, I'm going to continue dating and looking for my partner as I want what my parents have, near 40 years of happy marriage.

  • Thomas42 profile image

    Thomas42 8 months ago

    I'm not sure what part of my approach or my choice of women has left me single all these years. I do know my pool of options has narrowed as I've gotten older. I did try even though I can think of few things I find more unpleasant than approaching women. Lot's of time effort and money spent with no return except humiliation. Not that they have all been harsh, most find a diplomatic way of saying they are not interested, but when I hear women say men like the chase I think lions like to eat, not get kicked in the head by a water buffalo.

    As I pass 40 few women my age want to start a family even if I could find a partner, and that is a big part of what I wanted out of a relationship. I'm not giving up so much as coming to the harsh realization that it's simply to late for me, I missed the boat.

    So don't judge me to harshly for not being good at the "game" It's a game I hated and never wanted to play. It's like a job interview where there are 100 applicants for one job. I'd much rather be the one giving the interviews, but I've had no applicants.

  • savvydating profile image
    Author

    Yves 8 months ago

    Worthwhile women just want to be treated respectfully, just like you, Thomas. Many ladies are just as confused as you are, thus my title for this article. I simply tried to address how women can implement positive change. Most women relate quite well.

    I don realize it is hard for men to to understand a woman's perspective and vice versus. Anyway, hope you have a good evening, Thomas.:)

  • Thomas42 profile image

    Thomas42 8 months ago

    Thanks for your kind replies.

    I used to try to ask at least one women out a year, but I haven't met any that I've been interested in the past few years. I read this article along with many others here hoping for some idea, but it all seems a mass of contradictory information. One article will say one thing, the next the opposite. Many seem to be giving advice to do things that IMHO constitute harassment.....kinda a joke but in reality I've read/heard to many women complain about men hitting on them and don't want to be that guy . I certainly am not blaming women for anything, in fact the articles headline (women are confused..) brought me here in the hope that maybe they were in the same boat not knowing what the rules are in this rapidly changing and variable culture.

    At least the only thing I'm gathering is dust :P.

  • savvydating profile image
    Author

    Yves 8 months ago

    Wise words, Say Yes. Thomas is a nice looking guy. If women are turned off, that simply means his approach, as you say, is all wrong. Seems to me Thomas expects failure. Changing his perspective would help him a lot. That is where behavioral psychologists come in very handy. Thanks for commenting, my friend. I really appreciate your getting to the root of the matter. The other thing men like Thomas need to understand is that women are rejected just as much as men. Consequently, blaming all women for the same experience is foolish and unacceptable.

  • Say Yes To Life profile image

    Yoleen Lucas 8 months ago from Big Island of Hawaii

    Thomas42 - could the reason for your lack of success be due to either your approach or choice of women? I have looked back on my failed attempts, and in some instances can see why I failed; in others, it's a good thing I failed!

    What you need is not to give up, but to change what you're doing and how you do it.

  • savvydating profile image
    Author

    Yves 8 months ago

    Thomas42, Bottom line is that some people give up early in life, while others keep trying. The one's who keep trying ultimately get what they want. This same principle occurs in all aspects of life---from dating, to completing one's education, to landing the right career, to building a skyscraper. All of these things have pitfalls. Pitfalls are part of life. That doesn't mean we give up. Rather, we accept that everyone, including women, suffer rejection all the time. Those who succeed, don't let rejection keep them from growing. In other words, to those who keep trying, rejection is not the big ugly monster you make it out to be.

  • Thomas42 profile image

    Thomas42 8 months ago

    I once was doing IT work in a medical office. One of the network cables was electrically "hot" due to poor wiring in the building. Every now and then it would give me a jolt, not enough to be dangerous, but it hurt.

    After a while I simply couldn't grab the cable. It was a really weird feeling like my arm refused to move. I would have to concentrate and "force" my hand to grab it.

    This is what rejection is like, after a while it becomes impossible to move.

    If I didn't value the opinions of the women I asked it probably wouldn’t bother me so much. I guess that is why the men I know who care so little about women that it doesn't hurt them to be rejected find dating much easier.

    If one person had said yes I probably could will myself to continue, somewhere along the line I reached a point where I simply couldn't do it any more and stopped.

    I'm sure I'm not alone in this.

  • profile image

    happycamper10 8 months ago

    As many have stated, or alluded to here, we are at that "careful what you wish for" moment in women's battle for equality. At least in the metropolitan areas of the United States, we’re pretty much there.

    And, men are completely baffled - that women are baffled – by the state of relations between the sexes. It’s equality. And for the most part women don’t seem all that happy about the equality panacea they sought.

    Why is it that in couples where the woman is the primary breadwinner that the man is frequently viewed as lazy, unambitious, or in some way a burden to the woman? Whereas a couple in which the roles are reversed the woman is viewed positively, as a nurturing caring mother.

    And why is it so irksome to women that many men have rationally thought out that being with a woman in a long-term committed relationship just isn’t worth the hassle or the financial risk?

    Men aren’t bothered by women out there who reach the same conclusion about men – that men aren’t worth the trouble. It’s one more facet of life where you seem angry at us, and anger is not an attractive quality in either sex.

    Do we ever feel lonely? Do we miss sex? Sure, sometimes, but overall many men have very logically concluded that we are happier on our own, just enjoying our friends, golf, travel, music, life, and foregoing women.

    We’ve become ambivalent about it. And ambivalent men don’t hunt. And why should we – any more so than women - we’re equal, right?

  • savvydating profile image
    Author

    Yves 8 months ago

    Are you an MGTOW? For those who don't know what that is, the following is an explanation: The MGTOW community believe that legal and romantic entanglements with women fail a cost–benefit analysis and risk–benefit analysis. (Wikipedia)

    The gatherer guys I refer to are males who exploit women for their own use, who allow the woman to provide for him and their subsequent children, He expects the woman to clean, cook and pay all bills, while he does next to nothing except philosophize and complain about women. If you are not in that category, then the "gatherer" term does not apply to you. However, you may be a man who cares nothing for women, given your confusion that a woman actually appreciates having a man put some effort into knowing more about her. (Who knew?) Consequently, you might be in the MGTOW category. And yes, women should avoid either type of man like the plague, since neither type of man is capable of caring about her. However, he does care about her earning power and what she can do for him. Such men will never inconvenience himself for a woman. Consequently, he is no better than the (usually fictional) women he purports to hate. Any woman who wants a man like that needs serious counseling.

    Long story short, "C" if you cannot figure out why it is nice to be nice, then I can't help you. Thanks for reading.

  • profile image

    cubis 8 months ago

    Enjoyed your article, but still confused about this "gatherer" male who appears to be so toxic. Still trying to figure out how the woman seems "entitled" to this effort, pursuit and outward showing of interest from men ( who are then castigated for not showing the required predatory, hunting characteristic ) while men are not allowed to expect an equal (?) level of interest from women. Maybe this "gatherer" guy is just an introverted and cautious guy.

  • savvydating profile image
    Author

    Yves 9 months ago

    Cackus...No one ever said finding love is easy, but giving up and blaming all women for feelings of rejection is immature. Time to grow up.

  • savvydating profile image
    Author

    Yves 9 months ago

    Smarmy, I'm impressed by your focus. Almost no one becomes a homeowner at age 18. Very impressive. To your last paragraph I would say you have no idea what kind of hell women go through in relationships. Personally, I don't put up with nonsense from men, thus my relationships are respectful.

    The reason I write is primarily to help women avoid bad men and attract good men. Both sexes have to be ready to give and to love if they are going to be happy together.

  • profile image

    Smarmy2 9 months ago

    My stepfather had a bunch of property he would buy old homes fix them up and rent them out. Mostly 2 families and a shopping center.

    I've always been a saver and started investing at 13, I bought the house when I turned 18 with cash I saved and a little starter cash "loan" from my stepfather. It was a real mess and I got it cheap. I worked at a hardware store and used a lot of "reclaimed" items to restore it.

    I'm not really spiritual, that is true but I have a moral code that I hold myself to.

    I invested my time in myself, pursuing women just isn't something I was good at or wanted to do. I went back to school, travelled around and learned to be self sufficient. Bought a beautiful old farm house and started over.

    Why should I risk losing it all again? Everyone seems to be playing with a different rulebook anyway.

    I will stick by my comment about women asking men out, these "gatherers" seem to me to be a not very believable work of fiction. Women simply don't ask men out very often. Most men I know have never been asked out. If they don't initiate they remain single and while most men as you say aren’t "happy" being celibate, you should ask yourself why some men would chose this over asking women out.

    Until you can put yourself in mens shoes and at least try to understand the difficulties we face, you shouldn't give advice that is only going to make things harder for everyone.

  • savvydating profile image
    Author

    Yves 9 months ago

    Did you not say that the one woman left you when you were 29? Did you buy your house at age 19? In any event, if you are happy, that's great. Most men are not happy if they are celibate, unless they have a rich spiritual life. You don't come across as spiritual, but perhaps you are. Mostly, you sound like someone who thinks all women are like your girlfriend of long ago. Anyway, thanks for commenting, Smarmy.

  • profile image

    Smarmy2 9 months ago

    I had trouble logging in and created a new account.

    Now I read your reply and you say that I have "deep, internal conflicts or issues to work out"

    Nope, I'm a pretty outgoing positive and happy person, I have lots of friends, both male and female, a progressive political bend and a solid moral core.

    I'm just happier on my own. I'm not into casual sex and understand the social and legal pitfalls women present in the modern world. I lost everything I had in the last relationship, my finances were left in a shambles, I lost my home of 10 years. A house I had spent many long hours restoring.

    But mostly I watched my friends go through worse, losing access to their children on top of losing their homes. Some are single dads struggling with a society that doesn't seem to include them.

    I got to this thread from a link on a forum discussing Tesla, I simply agree with his philosophy and would rather invest my time in more fulfilling pursuits.

    Dating is confusing, I don't pretend to understand it. But I do know that doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result is the definition of insanity.

  • profile image

    Cackus 9 months ago

    Wow, Pretty harsh on Smarmy.

    One male poster wrote :

    "All that said, many men are coming to the only possible logical conclusion concerning this imbalance-- that the only way for him to not lose (and end up completely emotionally, psychologically, and physically exhausted, along with potentially financially drained) is to not play-- i.e. eschewing marriage/children…. only engaging in short-term or hook-up relations, etc. while leaving women to their own devices."

    Here this guy decides that he isn't into the "hook ups" and short term relationships that you argue are the prerogative of the "gatherer male" and you decide after his one post he has "..some deep, internal conflicts or issues to work out." For simply stating he gave up on dating.

    Yet in another post you say it's just fine for women to make that same decision

    You have also completely ignored what several male posters have said about womens bad reactions to gentlemanly advances. Women can be quite harsh in their rejections no matter how innocent and well mannered. It doesn't take to many harsh rejections for men to say "I'm not doing that again"

    You might try doing a little research.. Just to get you started.

    https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/the-squeaky-w...

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-308...

    https://theblog.okcupid.com/your-looks-and-your-in...

    If this message is posted and not just censored for disagreeing with you I hope some of your readers will take a look and maybe learn a few things about the realities men (and women) face in the modern dating world.

  • savvydating profile image
    Author

    Yves 9 months ago

    Smarmy...Not all men have given up as you have. One bad relationship is no reason to stop trying, but that's your perogative. I imagine you have some deep, internal conflicts or issues to work out. It's not too late.

  • profile image

    Smarmy 9 months ago

    This is an interesting thread. I came here through a roundabout channel. I don't date (never have) I married a girl I went to HS with when she asked me out.She left me when I was 29 and I never dated again. I'm 46 now .

    My experiences as a man suggest that you have created a really unrealistic strawman.

    I'm 6'2" tall extremely fit and handsome. (I used to model underwear you may see me if you buy hanes lol) Women don't ask men out and "gathering" doesn't work for men. To put it bluntly I'm one of the very few men that women do ask out and it's a rare event. For the average guy it's like being struck by lightning, winning the lotto and being eaten by a bear on the same day, it just doesn't happen.

    If men don't ask women out they are single.

    A lot of men just gave up. leaving the few odd (an I mean ODD in a bad way) men who hit on everything with a heartbeat to represent them .

    If you want a decent guy you have to take the initiative, otherwise you will get one type of man, and he's the type you should avoid.

    This article is bad advice.

  • savvydating profile image
    Author

    Yves 9 months ago

    Jimmy...How unfortunate that you are willing to buy into the fear-mongering of men who are too cowardly to step up and be a man. These men blame women for their problems. If any man or woman consistently has bad luck with the opposite sex, the problem is with them, much more so than the other party. Time to grow up or be forever disappointed. That goes for either sex.

  • profile image

    Jimmy 9 months ago

    Well, the sheer number of men coming here to disagree with your text is enough to show its at least flawed. I myself don't want to risk losing daily connection to my children in a divorce so I'm already doing the math and use a surrogate in India or Ukraine. Women today only brings risk of major suffering. I'm definately not risking my neck !!!

  • savvydating profile image
    Author

    Yves 9 months ago

    Never be afraid to play. If you never play, you've already lost. Plenty of people manage to date, get married, have children and live reasonably happy lives. Most of these people are "average" and not rich. I've meet plenty of them all the time. You're an intelligent guy. Try to figure it out by looking at yourself first, instead of having preconceived notions about everyone else. Best of luck.

  • profile image

    Muscrat 9 months ago

    If I showed a lack of manners it was because you find me at the end of a long road that has left me feeling more than a little confused and abused.

    The last thing I need are subtle hints and confusing body language. I honestly can't tell flirting from just being nice.

    You are correct in that I think it's time I changed my perspective. I started with cheerful optimism moved on to, this is going to take a lot of work then, if it happens it happens and that is where I was when I find this article describing men who wait for women as gatherers, so yes I was more than a little insulted and responded in anger.

    After reading this and other blogs here I'm getting to the point where it's time to concede. I have no idea what is expected of me and probably never will.

    Good luck to you

    "It's a strange game, the only wining move is not to play."

  • savvydating profile image
    Author

    Yves 9 months ago

    Muscrat, The rest of your comment was too long to post, but you said this: "The point I'm making is that the current situation in our society makes asking women out problematic at best. Men are just recovering from job losses (a big blow to confidence) Workplace rules have made it clear that a misstep might be the end of your career and frankly it's simply not a good idea.

    Telling women they shouldn’t pursue a man they are interested in is a terrible idea. Opportunities are few and I don’t' see that trend reversing itself.

    I would also add that the men who are good at asking women out are probably the last men you should go out with. Having "game" is not something a good man should have. That's advice about the way men are from a man you should take it to heart. Bad men have "game" very very bad men have more. Go to a PUA site and read if you think I'm joking. I think it has a lot to do with some of the hatred women feel towards men, the only interactions they have are from men that should probably be in prison. As far as men are, in the dating "game" the scum rise to the top."

    Just to clarify, I did not tell women not to pursue men, per se. Rather, I have told women to let a man know she is interested in a subtle way, so that he can feel confident is approaching her. All she has to do is smile, make eye contact, say hello and introduce herself. He should be able to take it from there. Confidence in a man is appealing. I would say that you are a "glass half empty" kind of guy. Time to try a new perspective. The one you have clearly isn't working for you. This time around, you showed some manners. That's an improvement already!

  • savvydating profile image
    Author

    Yves 9 months ago

    I meant that your comment about "toys" is inaccurate. When I use my iPhone to comment, it sometimes changes certain words.

  • profile image

    Muscrat 9 months ago

    " I have allowed this comment through since you cleaned up your language, unlike the last comment I was forced to delete"

    As I didn't use and bad language in my previous posts to this blog I can only conclude that it is the content of my argument you disagreed with and chose to censor for that reason.

    As to my comment being "immaculate" I have no idea what you mean by that, is it well dressed or free from fault, flaw and blemish?

    Please clarify, I wish to understand the rules here.

  • savvydating profile image
    Author

    Yves 9 months ago

    Muscat, I have allowed this comment through since you cleaned up your language, unlike the last comment I was forced to delete. Nevertheless, your comment is highly immaculate. Sex toys are generally used by men and women in relationships "for fun." I think sex toys are ridiculous, but that's just me. Porn, on the other hand is in a category all its' own. It will ultimately destroy a man, unlike silly sex toys. Two very different things.

  • savvydating profile image
    Author

    Yves 9 months ago

    David, Now you know how women feel.

  • profile image

    Muscrat 9 months ago

    " I hope you don't fall into the pornography trap. It's hard to claw your way out of that."

    I do agree with you on this one, porn to men is like a dildo or vibrator to a women. It's a substitute for human sexual interaction that promotes unrealistic expectations and odd fetishes.

    Men will be stimulated by the young thin and willing women they see in porn.

    Women will be stimulated by devices of size and activity that no human mans parts could replicate.

    Both are quite destructive.

    For men I would suggest that exercise can help and there are herbal remedies that can decrease your sex drive when it becomes inconvenient.

    I have created a mix of Licorice root, Saw palmetto, Chase tree berry extract and other natural ingredients that can significantly reduce the physical cravings for sex (and other problems) associated with longterm male celibacy. In fact it's the number one seller on my website I can't keep up with orders.

    So while I wait and look for a trustworthy women worth committing to a longterm relationship with I am not burdened by the intense sexual cravings that lead men to pursue less fulfilling relationships and can provide help to the many men who have decided to avoid sexual relations with women and those who are involuntarily celibate.

  • profile image

    David 9 months ago

    Here is the bottom line. When it comes to dating and romance these days, more and more men are saying..."Thanks, but no thanks."

  • savvydating profile image
    Author

    Yves 9 months ago

    Thanks, Paula, for telling it like it is. Some of these guys also have "mommy" issues. Hard to tell what caused Jomama's anger. Such a shame to live with such unhappiness. What a waste of time.

  • fpherj48 profile image

    Paula 9 months ago from Beautiful Upstate New York

    Jomama.....Tsk tsk....You're very bitter and thus you are rude. Gather your toddler toys and play elsewhere until you learn to use manners.

    It must have been a really special, intelligent, superior

    woman, above your maturity level who dumped you and hurt you so badly. Sorry, but you're not allowed to take it out on the ladies of the Hub.

    Just try to be worthy next time. DROP the attitude.

  • savvydating profile image
    Author

    Yves 9 months ago

    I never said hard-line feminism didn't create this mess. And by the way, I am not your honey. Do not call me that again.

  • savvydating profile image
    Author

    Yves 9 months ago

    Sounds like you're stuck on the money issue. My feeling is that you are not capable of being a friend to women because you despise them. Good luck to you. I mean that. I hope you don't fall into the pornography trap. It's hard to claw your way out of that.

  • profile image

    Jomama 9 months ago

    Just another typical feminist apologist article that shows its hand early with lines like

    " Nevertheless, because women are ever the adapters, they have chosen to compensate for the rise of the culturally androgynous male, aka, the "male gatherer." She has now assumed his previous role---that of protector and provider."

    Sorry to break it to you honey but it was feminism and women who created the gatherer male not the other way around.

  • profile image

    Muscrat 9 months ago

    I just attended a mandatory training session at the university I work at.

    After watching it I would sooner walk across a busy highway at night dressed in black blindfolded than ask a women out given the universities position.

    But just for the sake of argument I'll discount the very real possibility of institutional action if my approach is unwelcome and the person I asked overreacts.

    Why should I take the risk of rejection and pay for the date? My gender?

    That's what this article boils down to, "men must do this". No men (or women) mustn't do anything they should both have a choice to do what they feel will bring them happiness.

    That said most , not some most, of my friends are %100 MGTOW. and by that I mean they are celibate men who are decent caring people with progressive political leanings good jobs and female friends. They will never ask a women out and would turn them down if they did. I really can't blame them, the risks are so high, the reward so low. I still have hope on finding a nice person who hasn't slept with 5 guys (and before you go on a tirade about it being ok for men to sleep with 10 women, it's not and I haven't and wouldn't) I've had 2 relationships both long term. I've never cheated but both cheated on me.

    I still haven't given up, but I will not ask them out. It's very clear that in today’s society it's much much better to leave that burden to the women. I have enough pressure to fulfil the laundry list of qualification most women seem to have today. Dating seems more like a job interview.

    Must be over 6' ...check

    Must have abs.... almost lol

    Must have a degree...check

    Must make over $175,000 a year crap....

    Nice car, Full head of hair, etc etc etc...

  • savvydating profile image
    Author

    Yves 10 months ago

    I am not making that assumption, Monk. However, I do know what women want. And actually, society has been kind to men for the most part. Japan may have some serious trouble if their population begins to dwindle even further---same as China.

  • profile image

    MQNK 10 months ago

    My point was why do you assume to know what men want? Who is to say that men want the female role or to be as you say "gatherers". I for example just want to be left alone. Many men just want to be left alone at this point.

    I can imagine that you might want society to exist or thrive, but you have to understand that society was never kind to men. We are viewed as disposable when we turn 18 years old. As such, many men have chosen to simply abandon both concepts of gatherers and hunters. It's just a matter of time before men start neglecting sex completely. If you do not believe me, just look at the Japanese economy. Men are going leaving society in masses.

    You might be making the assumption that men care about what happens to society. You will be surprised how easy it is for men to live good lives with very little and how many are prepared to abandon society whenever they feel like it.

  • savvydating profile image
    Author

    Yves 10 months ago

    Hi Monk...I actually do not make that assumption, hence, the article on men who prefer what used to be the woman's role, If a couple has an understanding that the man stays home and she supports the family, then that is fine.

    I am mostly talking about dating and what women like, as well as the fact that if a man never had to pursue, he will simply become a male gatherer, which generally does not work out because male gatherers generally do not commit. They simply enjoy the ride, no matter how many baby momma' they leave behind. That's just not attractive or good for society. Just look at all the resentful boys who don't have dads.

  • profile image

    MQNK 10 months ago

    Why do you assume that man still want to be man?

    I don't get this, we had feminism which fought to get women equal rights and out of the kitchen. Basically to make women not have to be housewives.

    Which is wonderful, but why do so many of you assume that men want to be the traditional man? Maybe men were waiting for an opportunity to relinquish themselves from their traditional gender roles.

  • savvydating profile image
    Author

    Yves 10 months ago

    How very "male gatherer" of you. Nevertheless, thanks for reading.

  • profile image

    10 months ago

    What women seem to be missing is that this isn't about what women want or need. This is entirely about power.

    Women spent 50 years fighting to have all the power in every aspect of society but didn't understand is that power and responsibility go together. There is no separating them.

    Women decide when and if a relationship happens. Women decide who gets to have one and who doesn't. Women decide what form that relationship will take.

    From a male perspective, that means women also have all the duties, obligations, sacrifices, and responsibilities when it comes to those relationships.

    Of course men aren't putting in effort. Its not their job anymore. You have the power, that is your role to play. If women don't want to play it then those responsibilities can fall to the floor and go unfulfilled, and civilization ends as a result.

    Either way its no longer men's problem or concern.

working