Why Women Are Frustrated and Confused About Men and Dating

Updated on December 5, 2017
Free Love guy.
Free Love guy.

Many women are confused and frustrated about men and dating....and they don’t know why. Here is my take on this malaise: At one time, men were the hunters and women were the gatherers. On an intuitive level, this essence is still alive today. However, since the advent of the sixties sexual revolution, American cultural standards have shifted.

Men and women are exhibiting somewhat androgynous behavior. It is now becoming politically incorrect to make distinctions between men and women. Mind you, not everyone believes men and women are exactly the same, but some do. Thus, the distinctions between the sexes are blurred. America's sexual revolution has created confusion about the relational roles between males and females.

Consequently, there is a whole lot of friction going on in the world of dating.

For example, in recent decades, women have begun hunting and gathering for the male, so to speak. Traditional romantic roles are going by the wayside. In and of itself, this is not necessarily a horrible thing, but it is confusing. Why so? Because our society has inadvertently produced a new male prototype who has become adept at not putting in the time and effort to pursue a woman who truly interests him---the way men used to do.

Such men are convinced that it is perfectly fine for him to be "a gatherer," but the problem is, women are not natural "hunters." Nevertheless, because women are ever the adapters, they have chosen to compensate for the rise of the culturally androgynous male, aka, the "male gatherer." She has now assumed his previous role---that of protector and provider.

Who is the male gatherer? He is the male who claims to have embraced equality, but who actually doesn't respect women all that much. You've come across him. He is the guy who let's the women come to him. He does not pursue women. He lives solely for his own pleasure. His take is, "If women want equal rights, let her prove herself to me."

1960s Cultural Movement

The 1960's cultural movement had good intentions and some positive outcomes. However, the sexual revolution has failed us in the area of love, romance and commitment. Unfortunately, too many American men have morphed into something we did not foresee coming----the "gatherer," who is not adept at committing, pursuing or providing.

Herein lies the crux of the matter: Feminists had the right idea about wanting more equality, as in equal pay, but they got a little side-tracked by the free love thing. What they didn't realize is that most men are more than happy to accept the "No Strings Attached" philosophy of "free love." His philosophy goes something like this: "If we live together, I will enjoy the convenience of having a quasi-wife, but without any messy responsibilities or financial risk."

The male gatherer is into "low stress" relationships. In the event he should decide a woman with whom he is co-habitating doesn't meet his needs after all, he has no problem leaving. His reasons why?

"She was too much trouble. Who needs the drama?"

Meanwhile, he takes pleasure in having sex on a regular basis. Gratification with no commitment and no repercussions---that's his motto.

"Free love" has caused so many misunderstandings between men and women, primarily because women are wired for commitment, not just casual sex.
"Free love" has caused so many misunderstandings between men and women, primarily because women are wired for commitment, not just casual sex.

Yet sadly, women offer themselves up to the male gatherer, even though he has lost his instinct for honest romance and true commitment. Courting women isn't part of the gatherers' paradigm. He believes relationships should be easy and uncomplicated. Easy come, easy go. His expectations do not mirror the truth, which is that anything worth having requires time and effort to have.

Thus, having experienced disappointment in dating for the umpteenth time, many women carry around a perpetual cloud of frustration and anger. Nevertheless, not wanting to appear passive, women continue the hunt.

“We have to go after guys," they insist. "If we wait, nothing happens." "What choice do we have?"

Women who feel this way have a point, but their premise is wrong. She has another choice. She can let the man seek her. Here’s the thing. Women actually like having the man pursue her. His effort shows her he has a level of interest. She finds his pursuit of her hot and efficient - sort of like the engine of a BMW.

But the gatherer guy....well...he lacks drive. He's a Ford Pinto, or maybe a Volkswagen bus. The easy love thing works for him, but it isn't working for her. Apparently, easy love isn't so easy after all. Unwed mothers who struggle to raise their children without father's know this better than anyone. Unfortunately, the children get the raw end of the deal.

Percentage of Single Mothers Who are Hispanic
Percentage of single mothers who are White
Percentage of Single Mothers Who are Black
Percentage of Single Mothers Who are American Indian
42%
25%
67%
52%
Kids Count Data Center

What Needs to Happen

So what's a woman to do? First, she must learn to recognize the male gatherer. She must then stop throwing herself at his feet. Forever. Male gatherer guy does not have the inclination or the stamina for true romance women crave. He always leaves women feeling emotionally shortchanged. Why? Because he is, in fact, emotionally stunted. Chances are high that he didn't have a father to teach him the responsibilities of manhood.

In any event, any woman who truly wants an emotionally satisfying relationship with a man must first decide to place more value on her worth, her time, her career and her passions. In so doing, she changes her own perspective about the value of her life. Women must realize that meeting a great guy is icing on the cake. Icing is delicious; it can make a lovely difference---but it is still optional.

Women Have to Step Up Their Game as Well

She must learn to appreciate her womanhood and everything that being a woman entails, to include embracing her femininity. She doesn't have to become a man to be "equal." We are all equal by virtue of our humanity.

I knew a man who was a former hippie. He was highly educated, but the gatherer/hippie mentality never really left him. Anyway, he told me that he had lived in a commune where he really enjoyed his life. He talked about how fun it was to get naked and paint women's bodies. This, I gathered, was a type of foreplay. He went on to say that the only disagreeable aspect of commune life was that the women were, "Really messed up."

Not exactly the picture of a woman who has it "together."
Not exactly the picture of a woman who has it "together."

I guess so. Having multiple partners, not knowing who the father of your child is, and whether or not your lover(s) even remembered you from the day or night before would make any woman "a mess." The dirty little secret about the free love men of the 60's is that they were rampant chauvinists. They made love, smoked pot, quoted Nietzsche, Karl Marx, and existential poetry. They didn't do much else.

Meanwhile, the woman cooked, cleaned, scrabbled for food and even made herself available to other lovers at the request of her "main man." You know, equal love and all that. It's no wonder these women were so screwed up.

Meet the New Boss: Same As the Old Boss

The point is, male gatherers of the 1960's sexual revolution got used to the perks of free love. Not hard to comprehend. The problem we have today is that many men are content to view women in the same disrespectful manner as did the hippies back then. Unfortunately, women are still falling for gatherers. The problem however, is that when the going gets rough, because gatherer guy believes "she has too many expectations that don't match with my idea of fairness," it is all too easy for him to walk away. His feeling is, "I'll go my way and she can go her way."

To be sure, not all men act that badly, and I am not at all making that assertion. What I am saying is that our permissive society has created the "male gatherer" who does not understand why love and commitment actually matter. He thinks what matters is his freedom. After all, no one taught him how to respect women. His frustrated mom was probably working all of the time, and good ole' dad was MIA. Maybe his mom even lost the values she once had. Thus, the male gatherer had no positive role models to teach him what it means to become a grown-up. Consequently, he remains self-serving his entire life.

Shifting Focus

Common Reasons Why Men Don't Commit:

  • Males can get sex without marriage more easily than in times past
  • Males can enjoy the benefits of having a wife by cohabiting rather than marrying
  • Men want to avoid divorce and its financial risks
  • Men fear that marriage will require too many changes and compromises
  • Males face few social pressures to marry

Rutgers University's National Marriage Project

So naturally, it behooves the woman to shift her focus toward worthwhile men who actually enjoy pursuing a woman, who exhibit patience and caring, and who are willing to ignore the trend that presupposes men and women are exactly the same in every way.

Men and women are not exactly the same. Our bodies are different, our brains are wired differently, we communicate differently, we have different mannerisms, and in some cases, we have unique needs. But the male gatherer would have you believe this cannot be true, as that would not be fair or equal for him.

Long story short, women must become adept at letting the male gatherer go. In other words, she must learn to pare down the dating field. The smart woman values herself far too much to waste her time on a man who treats her as if she is worthless.

Finally, women must learn to become responsible for all the bad romantic choices she has made. She absolutely must take personal responsibility for her poor decisions; only then will she be able to turn her life around and thus begin to let go of the anger and frustration she had carried before. She will now be in a position to proactively guide her dating life in a manner that will finally allow her to experience true love and romance---the kind that has purpose, meaning, and staying power.

Confidence is sexy!
Confidence is sexy!

The smart woman does not play hard to get---she is hard to get. Let me explain. Playing hard to get suggests that a woman feigns disinterest in a man to whom she is attracted. Being hard to get has to do with the psyche of a woman who is selective about the kind of men she chooses to date in the first place.

Once a woman has determined she is interested in someone, she is free to capture his attention. However, she does this with care. She does not rush into a situation without first finding out what she is getting into. She learns to make better choices, always with long term consequences in mind. She becomes a more responsible and thoughtful woman.

A Word About Communication

Communication is a good thing, but some ladies mistakenly believe they must open up about every single thing that has ever happened to them "because that is only fair and honest." But the truth is, there is no reason for any woman or man to reveal everything about their feelings or their past relationships, in the beginning stages of dating.

We must open up at our own pace. In so doing, we are respecting our parameters and sense of privacy---and this is as it should be. A secure partner will respect your need to share your life stories at your own pace. In fact, no one really has to reveal anything that isn't relevant to the current situation. On the other hand, excessive secrecy in any individual is a red flag.

Dating: An Art

A woman who is thoroughly uncomplicated and too eager to please will not attract the love of a man who has the masculine fiber women crave. Her confidence as a woman, combined with her feminine spirit, is the magnet that consistently attracts truly good men her way. The woman who knows how to date well is very much at ease with her femininity. A worthwhile man will readily pursue a woman like her, but he is easily bored with a woman who does not provide him with any challenges whatsoever. A good man isn't looking for a doormat to walk over. The worthwhile man respects a woman who has backbone. Only gatherer's hate being challenged.

Positive dating also recognizes and appreciates the core differences between men and women. In truth, regardless of our cultural leanings, it's actually quite pleasurable to embrace the distinctions between male and female, rather than constantly fighting against them or, worse yet, attempting to act like the opposite gender. Masculine and feminine traits actually complement one another quite nicely---sort of like two pieces of a puzzle.

From now on, let the male gatherer do whatever he wants to do, just so long as he isn't doing it with you. Your responsibility as a woman is to turn your attention toward the man who shows you that he cares---through his actions. Listen to your woman's heart and mind. Only then will you be assured of love that will stand the test of time.

Truly.....Savvy

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  • savvydating profile image
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    Yves 2 days ago

    James, Read my bio/profile. That's all you need to know.

    Arthur, James168 & Thomas....I wish you a wonderful Christmas Season. ;)

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    James168 2 days ago

    Yves,

    Just curious if you are married, have been married, or divorced. If it was mentioned at some point , I didn’t catch it. I do think it is pertinent to the topic at hand.

  • savvydating profile image
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    Yves 2 days ago

    Arthur, everyone wants equal commitment, and marriage is not a business proposition. If you think of it that way, you'll never get anywhere with women. Perhaps it is just as well that you've given up.

  • ArthurAdamsDent profile image

    ArthurAdamsDent 2 days ago from Winnipeg, Canada

    "Like I said, Most women do not want a gatherer...."

    And yet in our modern culture men are now expected to take on both roles. And yet what we get when we have done this is what? You own view seems to be dim on that subject which is why i pointed that out but i think beleive you have made a erroneous assumption in this

    "The point is, male gatherers of the 1960's sexual revolution got used to the perks of free love. Not hard to comprehend. The problem we have today is that many men are content to view women in the same disrespectful manner as did the hippies back then."

    I disagree, nothing that I have said or to my knowledge any of the men in this post is that men are looking for 'free love", what we is equal commitment and even though i know you're weary of hearing about it, men think assets matter that is who we are and i think women need to i to understand that is what men are.

    "Women want to get married because it makes them feel safe and secure. She wants someone she can count on"

    Not unreasonable but i did notice that is was phrased in a gyro-centric method I can accept that but since i want to be seen as man talking to the women who read this article men want that too. And whats men questioning of marriage is when dismiss our concerns about the financial aspects.

    As a bottom line although marriage is for love, in our legal system it is a business contract. And with Divorce rates at 40-50 % (according to the American Psychological Association) it's huge risk, not just emotional terms, but also in a very real quality of life terms. and i think James is right if people want to become married a serious amount of pragmatism must be a part of it. It's certainly not romantic but every couple must make those decisions.

    I believe women who are advised to think that those questions don't matter to men, or if they do then they are not 'good men' are ill-advised and to begin to think about this themselves and to take how men think into account rather than dismissing it as "selfish"

  • savvydating profile image
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    Yves 2 days ago

    Thomas, I am not bored by you. I meant that your response was something you might need to email to Arthur's personal email because the information was rather private. That's all. :)

  • savvydating profile image
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    Yves 2 days ago

    James, you first indicated that the women left you. Now you are saying you leave them. Nor did you respond to my question about why a break-up is less traumatizing if you merely live together.

    Women want to get married because it makes them feel safe and secure. She wants someone she can count on. Marriage provides more security, or so she thinks. Also, marriage is part of our culture and women want to be a part of it. A man is generally more committed when he is married, though there is still a lot of cheating going on.

    The idea is that Marriage is not meant to be "easy come, easy go" like cohabitating.

    Also, didn't mean to shame you. I just get fed up with hearing about men's fear of losing money or his pride. It gets old. Choose carefully and don't cohabitate. Then you will have time to figure out if a woman is trustworthy or not.

  • savvydating profile image
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    Yves 3 days ago

    Arthur....there you go again with the "assets" thing. It seems like it's all you guys think of. You are wrong in your assumption. Most women want to be loved and treasured. Furthermore, most women work and make their own money.

    Also, I don't like men who are androgynous as you claim that women do. That is why I warn against them. The men I date are "all man." They're also gentleman in my presence. Honestly, just like James, I cannot help you get over your fear. But I do wish you luck & I hope one day you will see how skewed your thinking is. The MGTOW websites will not help you with that. I've seen them. Most of those guys are really messed up. Just saying.

  • savvydating profile image
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    Yves 3 days ago

    James, are you suggesting that the breakup's you've had are less traumatic because you were not married, or does this just come down to fear of losing half your assets? Obviously, you are not "all in." That is why women keep leaving. Love is not fearful. The good men I know are not so afraid of "what might happen" that they won't even take a risk. They want to be married. Once they meet a woman who really clicks with them, they can hardly wait to call her his wife. His love has true passion. It is not some vanilla thing that is afraid of what he might do if she leaves. Life doesn't come with guarantees. At any rate, no self-respecting woman would move in with a man who wants guarantees. No offense, but that demand is just plain sad, and it sounds like you want to have your cake and eat it too. Perhaps something happened when you were young that caused you to feel so averse to taking risks & in thinking life should have guaranteed. I cannot help you with that. You would need to speak with a professional therapist. Otherwise, you'll just have to hope that you meet a woman who is OK with acting like a wife without the benefit of being one.

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    James168 3 days ago

    Yves,

    Many women may feel diminished, but my problem is the ease with which most people break their vows. If a person can break their vows over such issues as boredom, commitment is nothing more than a hollow word to most folks. You are entitled to your opinion and I mine, but the statistics are what they are. I just know when I commit, I am dead serious about it...... if Someone were to break their vows with me over for frivolous reasons , I am not quite sure what my reaction would be.......if there was no such thing as no fault divorce I think older men would be more keen on marriage. But there is no fault divorce which enables women (and men) to renege On commitment..... so my question to you, why should a man committ through marriage, why isn’t his love, support, and fidelity enough? Thanks.

  • savvydating profile image
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    Yves 3 days ago

    Arthur....Gold diggers are not the norm. What I mean by not taking responsibility is: not taking responsibility for their lack of success in dating. Viewing dating as a minefield of danger is over-the-top, to say the least. Arthur, please make your comments shorter in the future. In general, I do not post long comments. Thanks.

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    James168 3 days ago

    I am just curious, what you think of my situation. I am very generous, just my nature. However, at my age I really don’t see a reason to get married. I am willing to be faithful to one woman, but I am up front with them about my feelings on marriage. Eventually , the ladies in my life move on, because I don’t want to get married. So my question, why would a women leave a monogamous, generous man just because he doesn’t want to get married? I think marriage is good when you are young, and you are preparing to start a family, but what is the point when two people are older, and starting a family isn’t in the cards. Thanks.

  • savvydating profile image
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    Yves 3 days ago

    Hello James...The male gatherer is basicslly a selfish man, of any age, who doesn't like women unless they can provide for him. He wants to be treated the way women have been traditionally treated. He prefers that women take care of him. He puts very little or zero effort into making the "relationship" meaningful. He uses women, but he doesn't love them.

    I have a lot of men commenting on this site who are angry. I assume I have hit a nerve even though they may not be gatherers per se. Mostly, they are mysogynistic men who want to keep their money and all their assets to themselves. Some of them identify as MGTOW. Those men are not necessarily gatherers, they're just jerks with jobs.

    Bad boys in their 20's can be gatherers, but mostly they're just foolish guys with high libidos who may or may not eventually become men. The male gatherer never becomes a man. He is extremely self-centered. If he can opt out of working he will. The MGTOW is a different animal, but he is also excessively self-centered. Such men do not take personal responsibility. They blame women and think that it's a woman's world or that the odds are stacked against them. So to answer your question, not necessarily, but sometimes.

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    James168 4 days ago

    Is the male gatherer just another name for the bad boy women go for through-0ut their 20’s?

  • savvydating profile image
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    Yves 8 days ago

    My article regarding Dating 101 explains "honesty." Of course a woman should answer "Yes" or "No" if a man asks her out to dinner. Your post is rather long, but I decided to post it anyway. It is unfortunate that you have had such miserable experiences in dating. You seem to view dating as a war. It doesn't have to be that way. Arthur, that is something you will have to figure out.....or not.

  • savvydating profile image
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    Yves 10 days ago

    When women don't require that the man be a man, he will never "step-up." Your five year relationship, in which you used a woman for your convenience, is a case-in-point. I do not argue that there are less hunters. This is why I ask women to beware of the male gatherer, i.e. the man who is only interested in his own needs. Why women date men who are totally self-centered is a mystery to me, but when she does, she becomes an enabler for the selfish male.

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    happycamper10 10 days ago

    Yves, you seem reluctant to believe that what Jetson George is saying is representative of a significant portion of males, but it is. It is real. And, society as a whole does have a problem on the horizon. Check out the book "Men on Strike". It is a disturbing societal trend, but that doesn't make it any less real.

    I dated a woman for five years and she wanted to be married. I didn't. I could see what was in it for her, but I couldn't see any benefit to me. So I didn't. And I was correct in my assessment. Us getting married would have benefited her much more than me.

    I realize that many women don't want to acknowledge that this is happening, but it is. More and more men when they analyze it are determining that the costs and risks outweigh the benefit. Men are reaching the conclusion that the reward of the hunt isn't worth it. They're just not hunting.

    I'm sure that you would find many a young woman that would argue that this statement simply has not been true for her, "Her confidence as a woman, combined with her feminine spirit, is the magnet that consistently attracts truly good men her way." And the reason it that the men are changing.

  • savvydating profile image
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    Yves 2 months ago

    Smarmy...Young women are still learning about life and it takes them awhile to know what they want and what is important. Same with young men. Meanwhile, MGTOW focus on money all of the time. Have you never given any thought to how much women sacrifice? Because we do. Listen, this article is not about money. It's about how to avoid men who are incapable of commitment, whether they are gatherers or MGTOW or just plain narcissistic jerks. If a woman wants a lifetime partner, she won't get that with a cynical man who thinks all women care about is money. That's just not true. Besides, even back in the 60's men had to pay child support. Today, some women pay alimony. Meanwhile, the children of said marriages have to trudge back and forth from mom's house to dad's house because they're splitting everything down the middle.

    People need to grow up and realize that sacrifice and risk is part of life.

    Otherwise, we simply remain children. I hear your "warning" but romance and true love isn't dead yet. If it comes to that, women will adopt children and live on their own, making their own money, kind of like many of us do now. Sure, it's wonderful to meet a good man, but if all men turn cynical one day, we'll do without them.

    I've never had that problem of being desperate for a male who acts like an idiot. If he can't act like a respectful adult, I have no interest. Therefore, I am here to teach women how to avoid women-haters and learn how to spot a man who cares and who shows it.

    I take it you guys want guarantees, but that's not real life. Truth is, unless we become stronger, better, and more moral people, then we probably have no business getting married in the first place. If a man or a woman continuously has relationship problems, then the common denominator comes down to who they are and how they treat people. I am sorry, but the views of MGTOW is skewed. That is why they can't sustain a relationship. They point fingers but never look at themselves. Frankly, all the hate speech and the whining is getting old. I've seen the vile things they say about women on their forums. Most of it is trash. If these men are that afraid, then all I can say is, Good Luck. Their lives will be lonely, ultimately, but that's their perogative.

    Do I tell women to clean up their act as well? Yes, I do.

  • profile image

    Smarmy2 2 months ago

    Women are a great motivational factor for young men. Young men know in order to attract a women they must be financially successful, look at how many articles on pairedlife on "how to attract a rich man"

    I know I worked very hard all my for this reason. They guy with the nice car wins over they guy on the bus every time. Men have to compete.

    Married men work long hard hours at jobs they hate, often in dangerous jobs, they expose themselves to hazardous materials harsh weather and bad working conditions to support their families. They work more overtime, have longer commutes and are %98 of workplace deaths. They sacrifice themselves for their families. In times of war they are expected to die en masse.

    Now comes some social changes, men lose their families homes and everything they worked for when women become bored or dissatisfied. They are expected to continue to support the household while having to support themselves. Most of the time they wind up with little to no access to their children. Being a man still carries the same burdens of the past, but the rewards are gone.

    Young men today decide that this is a raw deal. I don't know what I can say to this generation. Being a GenX I'm left without answers. While I still look for the traditional home I don't see this as a viable option for this next generation. I look around on a campus that is nearly %70 women. Of the %30 of men here many are exchange students which means the % of young american men in college is even less. Most women still expect the men they choose to earn more then they do, this is obviously not in line with reality.

    We need a social "new deal". Things have change for women, this is a great thing. Men are still trapped with the responsibilities of society but have lost the rewards that used to come with that responsibility.

    I understand you write from a womens perspective, there is nothing wrong with that. We have been discussing womens changing role in society all my life(longer) it's really time we start discussing mens role, as many men have decided to quietly opt out, leaving no one to fill their place. Without the incentives to continue, they simply wont and that is a very bad thing.

  • savvydating profile image
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    Yves 2 months ago

    Although Americans are very generous when it comes to charity, we have developed a culture of me, me, me. I agree that selfishness is a big problem, Sam.

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    Sam-e 2 months ago

    Yves,

    I see what you are saying. I agree that good, virtuous women can definitely be a catalyst for a men's spiritual and emotional growth and evolution. Unfortunately, in this society, truly virtuous women (and men) are few and far in between.

    I think the real problem for both men and women is our fractured Western society/culture that breeds selfishness and toxic, individualistic narcissism.

  • savvydating profile image
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    Yves 2 months ago

    Sam...What I am saying is that women who are too eager to please are the one's who get used and dumped. The challenge occurs when a woman actually says "No" or "not yet." A woman can also challenge a man to grow. However, I agree that men are straightforward and that they want love and respect, just like women do.

    Thanks for commenting. I agree with some of what you have said.

  • profile image

    Sam-e 2 months ago

    Yves, with all due respect, I don't think your understanding of what men want is really accurate.

    " thoroughly uncomplicated and too eager to please" and "does not provide with any challenges"

    This sounds more like what women want. Men are much simpler to figure out and keeping us around for the long term is actually pretty straightforward. I think most emotionally stable, men of value (myself and close friends included), are not looking to be challenged in a relationship. We really want TLC, affection, consideration, respect, ie harmony....its a two-way street of course.

  • savvydating profile image
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    Yves 2 months ago

    James...the articles I have read relate to MGTOW and porn, and how it is destructive to health. Here is another article.

    http://www.orderofman.com/porn-destroying-masculin...

    Yes, many MGTOW are depressed about having been rejected and having lost some of their money thru divorce.

    But rather than understanding that rejection is part of life, they become more solitary, believing that they need no one and that they are self-sufficient, all by themselves.

    But no man or woman is an island. We all need relationships, even if just close friendships.

    Without meaningful friendships, we simply cannot thrive.

    JP...The red pill is bitter. It's not what men need. Nor do they have to be stuck with the "blue pill." Forget all of that. Just form relationships and be happy.

  • profile image

    James168 2 months ago

    Yves, just curious where you got the statistic about MGTow nearly always sinking into depression. That is quite a bold claim. Relative to the depression, do they differentiated between men who were divorced & confirmed bachelors? Extroadinary claims require proof........

  • savvydating profile image
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    Yves 2 months ago

    HI Thomas....Thank you for telling me about your friends. They sound like truly decent & giving people. I am surprised that the handsome guy can't get a date. Strange. On the other hand, it's not like a woman is going to knock on his door and announce that she wants to date him.

    What I am saying is that if they never try, the results are obvious. They will remain alone, without the company of women.

    I actually do understand that some men are incredibly shy and sensitive to rejection. No one ever said that love is easy to come by or that good women or men, with whom we are compatible, are standing on every street corner. But if we don't try, we don't get.

    Furthermore. I continue to reject the reasons that MGTOW give for avoiding women. These excuses---are only that. Women are fearful too, mostly of potential violence or cheating.

    Anyway, the most obvious problem here is that MGTOW take the wrong approach. Their expectations are unrealistic. They need to approach dating with a more relaxed attitude. My article: "Savvydating 101" might prove helpful.

    Thanks for checking in, Thomas. Nice seeing you again. :)

  • Thomas42 profile image

    Thomas42 2 months ago

    Been a while since I've read this thread, interesting comments here. I should catch up.

    Yves 5 weeks ago you said

    "I am sorry to hear about your friend. I hope he overcomes his depression. "

    I'm not sure he's really all that depressed, In fact it's more of a "I've resigned myself after the problems caused by my last relationship and the near impossibility of finding someone decent. "

    That's it, he is one hell of a human being. I've known him and his brothers for many years, they are great people. One looks like Kevin Sorbos better looking twin the other is a guy who travels to Africa to fight Ebola . You could give them all your credit cards, the keys to your house, motorcycle, cars and a pile of cash. In fact that's exactly why his brother left me when he asked me to house sit when he went off to fight Ebola.

    None of us have dated in 15+years.

    These really are the MGTOW men, they look and see what is around they may ask a few women out but get no where and then they weight the risks vs the effort/expense required vs the reward and then stay at home and play xbox.

    They don't go on blog sites, they don't post anything or make any videos. They aren’t misogynistic, ugly, or defective in any way. They have good jobs, stable homes and care about other people. They probably (like me until lately) never heard of MGTOW

    They just look around for someone to care about who might care about them and no one looks back, so they take the only option available and stop trying. It's also easier, asking someone out is hard, no one I've ever asked has ever said yes, and some have been very unkind. I can remember every women I've ever asked out.

    I don't play the lottery, buying a ticket would only improve the odds of me winning by an insignificant amount. This doesn't make me a pessimist. I'm an optimistic person so I still go out and try to find women, if I ever meet anyone I'm interested in I might try to speak with her despite the high personal costs and great risk of doing so, but judging by my past experience it's less likely than finding that winning lottery ticket.

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    Yves 2 months ago

    Dear ding tam...I couldn't have said it any better. Thank You and I appreciate you!

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    dinh tam 2 months ago

    I'll give a thump up to this article.

    I believe the law in America about child support mainly to protect the child. "a gatherer" tends to just have sex, have fun and walk away without taking responsibility. "If you don't want to do the time don't do the crime." if you don't want to pay child support. Don't have sex. (Although, there are not nice woman out there who trapped the man and have kids for child support) so either men or women - before trying to blame this person that person, you should blame yourself first. But don't give up just yet - you still can change to be better and learn from your mistake. This article gave a lot of good points. Great article. Thank you very much :)

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    Jetson George 2 months ago

    Not dramatic, also demonstrably true. Men are sentenced to prison for failure to pay child support. This means they get locked in cages and lose their jobs. Modern day debtors prison. X years later, good luck to them getting any job at all with a criminal record. Those that resist, die. Something She is not going to have to worry about because we all know who is going to get custody and who will get the bill.

    Happily married people are happy. Some of them, it's true. That's a lot of one sided, life crushing repercussions to bet on a coin toss and vows broken by women at a 69% rate of the total - that's not sexist hyperbole, more demonstrable fact from the American Sociological Association's study.

    Until the law adopts some equality towards men, this modern trend of men declaring "I Don't" will continue its growth and all the societal effects that come with it. Point I'm trying to make is that not only are Men also "frustrated and confused about dating" Women, men have a lot more to be frustrated about. More than feelings or social expectation or courtship but about The Law and it's outrageous injustice holding a gun to a man's head. He's looking at a little jewelry box in his hand but the voice next to him pressing the steel against his temple says "You just gotta ask yourself one question. Do I feel lucky? Well do ya, punk?"

    Men are doing the math. They see exactly what the odds are and there's nothing lucky about it. "Choose Well". Sure, common sense that. All those guys who lost the coin toss, or even their fathers, they all thought they chose well too. Most MGTOWs really do want a relationship, a family. They're just not suicidal enough to try it. Women don't believe that men can or would put a dollar value on The Chance. They are wrong.

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    Yves 2 months ago

    "...armed forces ready to deal violence and death on her behalf."

    How dramatic.

    This isn't North Korea.

    Also, I've spoken of the benefits for men in the comments section before. If you are that interested, Google "Why married men are happier, healthier and live longer lives than non-married men." The trick is in choosing well and taking self-responsibility. If you don't do that, it's on you. I say the same thing to women. Good luck, Jetson.

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    Jetson George 2 months ago

    "No one has any assurances" Demonstrably false. "She" has a great many assurances guaranteed by an unequal court system and its army of armed government enforcers ready to deal violence and death upon her behalf. Her rate of return in divorce court is as unquestionable as the sun rising in the east.

    It is very disappointing that you have nothing to say on the subject of "What's in it for him?". With your frequent calls for increased positivity, I had actually hoped you would have something positive to offer. Apparently not.

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    Paula 2 months ago from Beautiful Upstate New York

    Back at ya, Lady! :) When I grow up, I want to be you! LOL (smile)

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    Yves 2 months ago

    Paula, you and I have seen the good, bad, ugly and every other

    emotion pertaining to life, but we still choose love, in one form or another.

    Thank you for your graciousness. I know that you know where I'm coming from. I appreciate everything you stand for. You're quite a woman!

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    Paula 2 months ago from Beautiful Upstate New York

    Did I just hear my girlfriend Yves say, "Behavioral Psychologist?" Oh dear, I see George went back and forth with you a few times. It actually turned out to be an interesting conversation.

    Needless to put in print, but of course I agree with your comments. Oh, and Kudos for your sincere & positive efforts at trying to help George see the light (or at least check his perceptions) I'm always proud of you, as well as your intelligence and grace.

    I'll go out on a limb here and say that you certainly gave JG much to contemplate, which I'd bet any amount, he's doing right this minute. Perhaps you have saved another sad fella from a lonely, boring life, without the company of a female.

    You do splendid work, Yves!.........Paula

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    Yves 2 months ago

    No one has any assurances. The "Red Pill" argument is based upon a film which failed to deliver...

    If I chose to live that way, I would hate all men just as you despise all women. No thanks!

    Some decent men exist. If you choose not to be one of them, then God help you. I'm not into Blue or Red pills. Life is more meaningful than that. If you want a counter-argument, look elsewhere. I am not playing that game.

    That being said, you write very well. Some of your verses are like poetry. Perhaps you are more idealistic than you realize. Good luck to you, Jetson.

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    Jetson George 2 months ago

    Perspective is a curious thing. I'm sure there's some philosophy or psychology 101 topic about whether reality is reality or if perception creates individual reality. Probably drags the spiritualists into it.

    Opinions and emotions are dangerously unreliable things. I'll stick with observable data whose results can be compared. The observable data on the current balance of the sexes is damning.

    "Think happy thoughts" is no way to address the injustice of the current legal system or the society that promotes it. It's also why MGTOW and MRA's call it "The Red Pill", compliments of The Matrix film. One drops the happy thoughts, the desires and just takes a good, long look around at how things are. Yes, it is all very negative. Comes from a lack of much good to be said about it. But the numbers don't lie.

    Here, you take the initiative. I've carried on about the demonstrable reasons why a man would be a fool to enter into a relationship in today's society; all about what's in it for Her and was assurances She has and the lack of the opposite. Offer your counter argument. We can compare the risks, rewards and real world results.

    What is in it for Him and what assurances does He have?

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    Yves 2 months ago

    Sooooo.....I take it you're a glass half empty kind of a guy.

    Seriously, Jetson, you could do with a dose of optimism and perspective. Life can be fun. Cheer up a little. You're an intelligent guy. Why live in misery? It's not a good choice. You may not need a psychiatrist, but a behavioral psychologist could give you some perspective.

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    Jetson George 3 months ago

    See, that's part of the "frustration". Men are demonstrably oppressed by western society, brutally unequal in the court of law, expected to be the aggressor in courtship yet endlessly demonized for their "toxic masculinity", being labeled creeps and rapists for existing, failing women's 80-20 standards and falling short of the Rule of 6 - 6 figures, 6 feet, 6 pack, 6 inches and only when she turns 35+ does she deign to give that other 80% of men so much as the time of day. Now that her beauty and fertility are about to hit The Wall she decides its time to "settle" for Mr. Good Enough. She has no interest in loving him, only what he provides. It's why she "settled" for him, as a resource.

    And when men express their frustration backed by the cruel facts of society, they are told that they need "psychiatric help". Heaven forbid if data were compared and a rational conclusion deduced from it.

    All MGTOWs want is equality under the law so they can actually AFFORD to take the risk of getting involved with a woman. As for women chasing after men who despise them, that's just the natural result of the 80-20 rule. See Susan Walsh's "Sex and The Pareto Principle" study.

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    Yves 3 months ago

    Jetson, You have summed up the misery of MGTOW. Everything is disastrous and catastrophic in that world. Apparently, they believe women are to blame. It's really sad. I wish more of you would get psychiatric help. I suggest the same for women who continually chase after men who despise women. Hence, my reason for writing this hub. Choose well. That applies to both men and women.

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    Jetson George 3 months ago

    Cost and risk assessment of a potential relationship does not make the partner a "product". It is the simple question of "If I get involved with this person, what is likely to occur?" Opinions be damned, the cold statistics are brutal enough.

    I've done my homework, feel free to google these numbers up. The divorce rate hovers just below 50%. That's an outright coin toss. Women initiate divorce at an astounding 69%. When she leaves, she will take the house, she will take your children and she will take your future income - possibly for life. She can even force him to pay child support for children that are-not-his. Armed government enforcers will be dispatched to ensure she gets all of that, at gunpoint if need be. If he resists, he will be beaten into submission and thrown in a cage, or killed. When he asks "What's with this raw deal?" he is told that he needs to man-up. And just for some salt in the wound, 7 of 10 suicides are male.

    A modern man looks at this, looks at "her" and asks "What's in it for me?" Her "companionship"? For whatever that's worth. What IS it worth? More and more men examine that list and decide "It's not worth THAT." Heck, if he is fool enough to marry her, he might not get that "companionship" either; know plenty of miserable, celibate married men. You can bet that no armed government enforcers are going to show up if SHE stops providing.

    Of course men are increasingly suicidal. Why not? Once you have abandoned any thought of finding a wife or starting a family, all that's left is creature comforts and entertainment to pass the time until you die. That's not going to inspire a man to engage in society or even spare a kind thought for it. It's not as if he is invested in it at that point. No legacy or next generation for him to care about.

    Yea, it's easy to see a lot of hatred when examining MGTOW. Faced with such prospects, can you blame them? Can you really? They are always being told of THEIR shortcomings, their "inner hatred, unresolved issues and addiction to porn". The girls in their lives are made of so much sugar, spice and everything nice that the men in theirs would rather die alone. Or kill themselves. Then the women ask where have all the good men gone?

    WOMEN are frustrated and confused about men and dating? Makes a man want to laugh all the way to his grave.

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    Yves 3 months ago

    Jetson....While I appreciated your first comment, I cannot agree with this one. First of all, women are not products to assess, and I do not appreciate that MGTOW speaks of women in this demeaning fashion. It is almost as if the MGTOW movement wants society to fail so that you can shout, "See, this is what happens when women demand equal rights." We are all human. None of us are products or animals, and none of us want to be treated as such.

    As for Japan, the men who don't marry there have decided to do so because they have seen their fathers work 18+ hour days, seven days a week because that is how business arrangements are set up in Japan.

    Furthermore, Japanese men generally do not hate women. They have many women friends. What they hate is that Japanese society made their fathers, quite literally, work themselves to death.

    As for the MGTOW movement in the U.S., these are generally men who blame women for their problems. Yet the movement in Japan and the US are not the same. The men who forsake traditional work in Japan are generally effeminate. They like their games and their computers, and the occasional outing with friends. Working like a dog does not appeal to them.

    In the U.S., the MGTOW are vastly different. These men often have good careers, are not metro-sexual, and they almost always despise women for one reason or another. Furthermore, it appears that as time goes on, they tend to become suicidal, not because of women, but because of their inner hatred, unresolved issues and their addiction to porn.

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    Jetson George 3 months ago

    I've been watching the growing MGTOW movement/philosophy with great interest and agree with a lot they have to say. They see all that cost, risk, stacked courts, suicide rates and worst of all, they remember their fathers and wouldn't wish that on anyone. The odds are so bad that dying alone looks like the preferable alternative.

    Of course, this is a giant, generational time bomb compliments of unfunded social security and the like. Japan is the canary in the coal mine and everyone is watching to see how their economy handles the sharp drop in population as western civilization slowly suicides like "the beautiful ones" in that old giant mouse colony experiment.

    As you note, many point out that because of this male disengagement, "society has a problem". "Society" looks at all those scorned, demonized cisgender males and demands that they "man up" to save society. To sacrifice themselves for everyone else's benefit. From the deep shadows of their browbeaten poverty, disrespect and inequality under the law they whisper back, "No.".

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    Yves 3 months ago

    Interesting. I know full well that women "of a certain age" give up, but that's only because they've already had their marriage with children, and sex simply isn't that big of a deal anymore. But when 29 year old men give up, then society has a problem. One of those problems is fake online "non-relationships. " Thanks for writing in Jetson. Loved the Jetson cartoons, by the way.

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    Jetson George 3 months ago

    I'll let Aaron Clarey say it all from his own article titled "Yes, Men Do Leave the Market" Just an excerpt.

    But what is becoming a more frequent phenomenon is a question these girls ask;

    "Where are all the guys?"

    I never paid much attention to this, as it has always been the case that men just eschew dance classes, but it wasn't until an older dance student of mine perhaps refined the question a bit and made it more pointed. It wasn't so much "Where are all the guys," as much as it was;

    "I just get the feeling there aren't any men anymore. Not just in dance class, but where are all the men from all the various social activities? They make up half the population, but I can't find any single guys to date. They can't all be married, even my female friends are running into this mysterious disappearance of men. Do they like stop trying after a while and just stay home?"

    And that's when I realized what she was asking.

    "Do you mean, do men give up and don't bother trying to find women any more?" I clarified.

    She said, "Yes. So do they?"

    "Yes" I answered.

    She was somewhat surprised at my response. She said, "so they just give up? They don't go out anymore? Don't they want to find somebody? Anybody?!"

    "Yeah, more or less."

    "That's crazy! How do they ever expect to find anybody?"

    I replied, "Well...they don't."

    Regardless, the point was her reaction surprised me in return to see this was that shocking of a revelation to her. I always thought it was kind of common knowledge, men do indeed give up after a while, but apparently it's not.

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    Yves 3 months ago

    Great observations, Daniel. I agree with you on all counts. As for online dating, it's tricky, in that there is too much emphasis on looks, and it is easy to misread someone's meaning online...

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    DanielLetourneau 3 months ago

    While I agree that there is room for traditional gender roles in society, we really need to assess and define relationship. Women are not nearly as limited as monogamy in 2017. In the same way men can openly enjoy sex, women are enjoying more freedom. There are many men and women enjoying varied ways to organize relationships. It is true that heterosexual dating is largely a mess right now, and that what you are suggesting, would certainly help. That said, technology's influence on dating is worth more than a cursory glance. It has many ramifications that are making long term committed relationships seem less important. Values shift.

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    Yves 3 months ago

    happycamper....If you'll notice, I did not say that women do as much asking out as men, but they are often rejected by the man after a first date. Also, when it comes to online dating, some women get virtually no interest from men. Furthermore, quite a few women find they are the temporary "stand-in" until the guy finds something "better." That kind of rejection is very hurtful. Because you are not a woman, I understand that you cannot begin to realize the amount of heartache that women go through because of selfish men. (And I am not saying that all men are selfish.) Anywau, this is why I do not always show much sympathy for men who comlain about being rejected. Women are rejected constantly.

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    happycamper10 3 months ago

    Savvydating, you wrote a couple of weeks ago, "women are rejected just as much as men." You cannot be serious. I have had exactly one woman ask me out in my entire single life - and I accepted. And, I would imagine the men participating in this thread have had similar, lopsided, experiences. There is nowhere near the level of rejection for women, because there is nowhere near the level of asking by women. Although I agree this is changing as men and women become more equal, it is still unquestionably the expectation - and the reality - that men do the asking.

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    Yves 3 months ago

    Thomas, Good advice for Yannick.

    Also, I am sorry to hear about your friend. I hope he overcomes his depression. There is good help out there. Or it could be he just needs to take up an outdoor activity. The vitamin D from the sun does wonders for the body & exercise releases endorphins that make us feel happy.

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    Thomas42 3 months ago

    Yannik.

    One of my best friends from High school married a women with two young girls. Together they had a son. She cheated on him, charged up a fortune on his credit cards and left him with three children, one still an infant.

    He spent the next 20 years being miserable, at first he had to work all those hours of overtime to pay off the bills. He virtual disappeared.

    After a few years he got a handle on the debt, but he still continued the same pattern of work and home, gave up on his hobbies and interests. I can't get him out the door. The two girls are grown and gone. His son just moved to Michigan and now he's alone.

    While it's true that you can be single and happy, forgive me for judging you but I don't think you are.

    You need to let go of the anger, forgive if not forget the wrongs that have been done to you and move forward. It's advice that has been given to me. I know I have had trouble taking it myself, but I do know it's good advice.

    It's ok to be single, it's ok to live as you wish.

    Good luck to you.

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    Yves 3 months ago

    Yannick....Some men and women are meant to be together, while others are not. I am sorry this woman you loved turned out to be so selfish.

    If you are happier alone, that is fine. However, age 45 is pretty young to give up on love. Please don't fall into the trap of believing that all women are bad. Some people have character and morals, and others do not. Once you feel more comfortable with your growth, you will gain a more balanced perspective regarding what constitutes a healthy relationship. I truly wish you happiness.

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    Yannick Messaoud 3 months ago

    Men and women are simply not fit to be with each other, the world today is that screwed up. I was with a women that i loved for 10y she left me telling me she never really cared for me, after all i had done for her, and she left me for a man at her job, sold the house and was heart broken while she was having fun. I have been single for 4years now i am 45 i am well built tall i train 6 times per week i have a good job my own condo. All the women i met and in my age bracket are confused, some saw me telling me i look amazing etc, but they never wanted to commit, they where very positive and willing until the last minute where they flaked and i been told i am sorry i am confused. I stop seeking women and i hope the men that read this do the same, men need to man up and become men, i cook, clean, and wash do everything my laundry and so much more alone. What possible gain would i get from going out with a single mom who is confused and most of the time cannot do nothing..... i am very active and most women i met can't keep up.... also everyone i meet are either separated divorced or having issues with there couple, i don't want none of this. Men have become weak, needy, attention seeking and yes beta. All in all i used to think i needed a good women beside me, but i found out i needed to work on myself to learn and become a better person, to shake that mentality that i needed a women to be happy, and to mature and not be afraid to be on my own. Develop passions that i can do alone and in today world there are lots of this.

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    Yves 3 months ago

    HI Thomas, Just keep in mind that the woman does not have to be that much younger, if at all. If she is in her mid to late 30's or early 40's, that only means she has to have more doctor's visits than a pregnant woman in her 20's. Don't give up! Yoleen and I are rooting for you.;)

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    Thomas42 3 months ago

    Thanks Yoleen, I'm not really into "sports" other than I'm an avid cyclist. I used to hike and camp a lot but it's not something that you do to socialize and meet people lo. My third shift job limits my social activities, I did join a cycling group but it's mostly guys and a few of their wives and girlfriends no one single.

    I'm an engineer so my circle of friends tends to be mostly men and there aren’t many women who share my interests.

    Although I'm in really good physical shape and as far as I know would have no problem being a father (my grandpa was nearly 60 when my uncle was born) it would mean finding a women significantly younger which is hard to do.

    I'm trying to be more social when I have the time, right now I'm pretty busy between work and school. I barely have time to keep the lawn mowed.

    I'll keep trying and think about what you said.

    Thanks again Savvy and Yoleen.

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    Yves 3 months ago

    Men can have children at any time. You could have children 10 years from now and still be active enough to run around with them. I'm sure you would be a wonderful dad. Don't give up, Thomas. We've all suffered rejection. So what! As my mom used to say, their loss. Lol.

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    Yves 3 months ago

    Fantastic advice, Say Yes! Truly, you're a special woman, my friend.

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    Yoleen Lucas 3 months ago from Big Island of Hawaii

    "So don't judge me to harshly for not being good at the "game" It's a game I hated and never wanted to play."

    Thomas42 - that's the reason why you have problems. You hate it!

    If you really want to date women, can you find ways to make the process enjoyable? Example: engage in your favorite sport, and meet women in that venue.

    Suppose I were a man, and loved ice hockey. I could join a local team, and meet figure skating women at the rink.

    If you love football, perhaps you can play it and meet cheerleaders.

    Either way, keep it fun. Don't go straight-on looking for a wife (she shouldn't be straight-on looking for a husband, either). Just hang out with lots of women - and men - and see what turns up!

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    Thomas42 3 months ago

    I doubt if my standards are all that high, I don't go for the big breasted model tand prefer a tomboy or the girl next door type I have something in common with.

    Other than being physically fit and active I don't really have much of a preference looks wise. Dating a women I have no attraction to is pointless and would only lead to disappointment on both sides.

    As Steve mentioned about his friends I've never been on an internet chat room or anything like that. I never understood why men would like that. It's like looking at pictures of food when you're hungry.

    I do have some issues, but who doesn't? I certainly don't expect any human to be baggage free. Most of mine are simply from being alone all these years and dealing with rejection which isn't good for anyone’s self esteem and has left me more than a little depressed.

    I have some fears of being hurt, again who doesn't, but in fact I'm a naturally trusting individual who likes to see the best in people, my fears developed over time and experience with good reason. They are by no means unreasonable or insurmountable.

    40's may not be "old" but it's seriously pushing it for having a healthy child and it's not like I'd find someone to marry and start a family with next week. Given my track record it could be years (if ever) before I find a date much less a serious relationship. I've only dated 3 women and only one long term. I don't consider this "catastrophic expectations" I'm simply predicting future outcomes based on past experiences.

    Anyway, thanks for the advice, I'll keep reading. I'm not quiet ready to give up like a lot of my friends have, but I am trying to be realistic about my chances and I know time is not on my side.

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    Yves 3 months ago

    Hi Steve...If the girl asked you out, then she would very much like a relationship. Women say they don't need a man because, in today's culture, women don't want to come off as too traditional or needy in any way. Unfortunately, a fair amount of men these days

    judge women really hard for wanting equal rights. Frankly, most women simply want equal pay in the workforce and they just want to be respected. That's it.

    You are much wiser than your friends. Research has shown that Internet porn actually destroys a man's ability to interact with human women. The truth is that men addicted to porn live sad and lonely lives. They become depressed and suisudal. You don't want that. Kudos to you for having more sense. Follow your parents example and you will have a rich and happy life, with a real woman and real children who live you to pieces. You're a smart young man!

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    Yves 3 months ago

    Thomas, someone in my family has the same problem. He has two problems which he has yet to recognize.

    1) His standards are exceptionally high. He's nice looking in a way, but he's no George Clooney, yet he feels he should have a Pamela Anderson. Frankly, he puts too much focus on looks. That is not to say that is your problem.

    Secondly, he is suspicious of women. He doesn't really trust them to not break his heart. Furthermore, he fiends too much money trying to impress women. Finally, he hasn't looked at himself very seriously, although he insists he is a "good man." The truth is that he has some issues to resolve. You might not be any of those things, Thomas. My point is that lots of men and women feel insecure for one reason or another.

    You are barely in your 40's. In so way does that constitute "older." You really have to find a way to relax a bit. I recommend that you read my article on Savvy Dating 101.

    Anyway, I think you have what is called " Catastrophic Expectations. Look it up.

    You'll be fine. It is just a matter of realizing that your fears have been blown out of proportion. My best thoughts are with you, Thomas. You can have a successful relationship. I truly believe that. ;)

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    Steve825 3 months ago

    It's interesting to read things from a female perspective...the dating world seems to be one big confused mess at present.

    I'm a guy in his early 30's and was asked out for the first time ever recently by a woman of the same age. To be honest it didn't go too well as one of the first things she said on the date was "that I don't really need a man"... not a great start.

    Talking a bit, I gathered she was a real 3rd wave feminist but was torn between being lonely, desperately wanting children and wanting to be seen stronger & more capable than any man, so much so that she couldn't even admit to needing a man in her life even one she had asked out.

    As I said to her I want a woman in my life who needs me just as much I need her, it's supposed to be a partnership. Feminism has done some strange things to the dating world for women but so has Porn on the men's side.

    I'm the only one of my friends to still be asking women out, all my mates who are similar age to me have stopped dating completely and spend all their money & time on Internet cam girl sites like Chaturbate, chatting and having live sex shows with the girls. Even some of my friends teenage(15'ish) lads who are still at school are spending more time talking/playing with cam-girls than they do talking to "real girls"... they say real girls just can't compete with the Internet.

    I'm not saying sex-workers shouldn't have jobs etc as I like boobs as much as anyone but Internet porn is definitely changing the dating landscape.

    Well, I'm going to continue dating and looking for my partner as I want what my parents have, near 40 years of happy marriage.

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    Thomas42 3 months ago

    I'm not sure what part of my approach or my choice of women has left me single all these years. I do know my pool of options has narrowed as I've gotten older. I did try even though I can think of few things I find more unpleasant than approaching women. Lot's of time effort and money spent with no return except humiliation. Not that they have all been harsh, most find a diplomatic way of saying they are not interested, but when I hear women say men like the chase I think lions like to eat, not get kicked in the head by a water buffalo.

    As I pass 40 few women my age want to start a family even if I could find a partner, and that is a big part of what I wanted out of a relationship. I'm not giving up so much as coming to the harsh realization that it's simply to late for me, I missed the boat.

    So don't judge me to harshly for not being good at the "game" It's a game I hated and never wanted to play. It's like a job interview where there are 100 applicants for one job. I'd much rather be the one giving the interviews, but I've had no applicants.

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    Yves 3 months ago

    Worthwhile women just want to be treated respectfully, just like you, Thomas. Many ladies are just as confused as you are, thus my title for this article. I simply tried to address how women can implement positive change. Most women relate quite well.

    I don realize it is hard for men to to understand a woman's perspective and vice versus. Anyway, hope you have a good evening, Thomas.:)

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    Thomas42 3 months ago

    Thanks for your kind replies.

    I used to try to ask at least one women out a year, but I haven't met any that I've been interested in the past few years. I read this article along with many others here hoping for some idea, but it all seems a mass of contradictory information. One article will say one thing, the next the opposite. Many seem to be giving advice to do things that IMHO constitute harassment.....kinda a joke but in reality I've read/heard to many women complain about men hitting on them and don't want to be that guy . I certainly am not blaming women for anything, in fact the articles headline (women are confused..) brought me here in the hope that maybe they were in the same boat not knowing what the rules are in this rapidly changing and variable culture.

    At least the only thing I'm gathering is dust :P.

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    Yves 3 months ago

    Wise words, Say Yes. Thomas is a nice looking guy. If women are turned off, that simply means his approach, as you say, is all wrong. Seems to me Thomas expects failure. Changing his perspective would help him a lot. That is where behavioral psychologists come in very handy. Thanks for commenting, my friend. I really appreciate your getting to the root of the matter. The other thing men like Thomas need to understand is that women are rejected just as much as men. Consequently, blaming all women for the same experience is foolish and unacceptable.

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    Yoleen Lucas 3 months ago from Big Island of Hawaii

    Thomas42 - could the reason for your lack of success be due to either your approach or choice of women? I have looked back on my failed attempts, and in some instances can see why I failed; in others, it's a good thing I failed!

    What you need is not to give up, but to change what you're doing and how you do it.

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    Yves 3 months ago

    Thomas42, Bottom line is that some people give up early in life, while others keep trying. The one's who keep trying ultimately get what they want. This same principle occurs in all aspects of life---from dating, to completing one's education, to landing the right career, to building a skyscraper. All of these things have pitfalls. Pitfalls are part of life. That doesn't mean we give up. Rather, we accept that everyone, including women, suffer rejection all the time. Those who succeed, don't let rejection keep them from growing. In other words, to those who keep trying, rejection is not the big ugly monster you make it out to be.

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    Thomas42 3 months ago

    I once was doing IT work in a medical office. One of the network cables was electrically "hot" due to poor wiring in the building. Every now and then it would give me a jolt, not enough to be dangerous, but it hurt.

    After a while I simply couldn't grab the cable. It was a really weird feeling like my arm refused to move. I would have to concentrate and "force" my hand to grab it.

    This is what rejection is like, after a while it becomes impossible to move.

    If I didn't value the opinions of the women I asked it probably wouldn’t bother me so much. I guess that is why the men I know who care so little about women that it doesn't hurt them to be rejected find dating much easier.

    If one person had said yes I probably could will myself to continue, somewhere along the line I reached a point where I simply couldn't do it any more and stopped.

    I'm sure I'm not alone in this.

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    happycamper10 4 months ago

    As many have stated, or alluded to here, we are at that "careful what you wish for" moment in women's battle for equality. At least in the metropolitan areas of the United States, we’re pretty much there.

    And, men are completely baffled - that women are baffled – by the state of relations between the sexes. It’s equality. And for the most part women don’t seem all that happy about the equality panacea they sought.

    Why is it that in couples where the woman is the primary breadwinner that the man is frequently viewed as lazy, unambitious, or in some way a burden to the woman? Whereas a couple in which the roles are reversed the woman is viewed positively, as a nurturing caring mother.

    And why is it so irksome to women that many men have rationally thought out that being with a woman in a long-term committed relationship just isn’t worth the hassle or the financial risk?

    Men aren’t bothered by women out there who reach the same conclusion about men – that men aren’t worth the trouble. It’s one more facet of life where you seem angry at us, and anger is not an attractive quality in either sex.

    Do we ever feel lonely? Do we miss sex? Sure, sometimes, but overall many men have very logically concluded that we are happier on our own, just enjoying our friends, golf, travel, music, life, and foregoing women.

    We’ve become ambivalent about it. And ambivalent men don’t hunt. And why should we – any more so than women - we’re equal, right?

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    Yves 4 months ago

    Are you an MGTOW? For those who don't know what that is, the following is an explanation: The MGTOW community believe that legal and romantic entanglements with women fail a cost–benefit analysis and risk–benefit analysis. (Wikipedia)

    The gatherer guys I refer to are males who exploit women for their own use, who allow the woman to provide for him and their subsequent children, He expects the woman to clean, cook and pay all bills, while he does next to nothing except philosophize and complain about women. If you are not in that category, then the "gatherer" term does not apply to you. However, you may be a man who cares nothing for women, given your confusion that a woman actually appreciates having a man put some effort into knowing more about her. (Who knew?) Consequently, you might be in the MGTOW category. And yes, women should avoid either type of man like the plague, since neither type of man is capable of caring about her. However, he does care about her earning power and what she can do for him. Such men will never inconvenience himself for a woman. Consequently, he is no better than the (usually fictional) women he purports to hate. Any woman who wants a man like that needs serious counseling.

    Long story short, "C" if you cannot figure out why it is nice to be nice, then I can't help you. Thanks for reading.

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    cubis 4 months ago

    Enjoyed your article, but still confused about this "gatherer" male who appears to be so toxic. Still trying to figure out how the woman seems "entitled" to this effort, pursuit and outward showing of interest from men ( who are then castigated for not showing the required predatory, hunting characteristic ) while men are not allowed to expect an equal (?) level of interest from women. Maybe this "gatherer" guy is just an introverted and cautious guy.

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    Yves 4 months ago

    Cackus...No one ever said finding love is easy, but giving up and blaming all women for feelings of rejection is immature. Time to grow up.

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    Yves 4 months ago

    Smarmy, I'm impressed by your focus. Almost no one becomes a homeowner at age 18. Very impressive. To your last paragraph I would say you have no idea what kind of hell women go through in relationships. Personally, I don't put up with nonsense from men, thus my relationships are respectful.

    The reason I write is primarily to help women avoid bad men and attract good men. Both sexes have to be ready to give and to love if they are going to be happy together.

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    Smarmy2 4 months ago

    My stepfather had a bunch of property he would buy old homes fix them up and rent them out. Mostly 2 families and a shopping center.

    I've always been a saver and started investing at 13, I bought the house when I turned 18 with cash I saved and a little starter cash "loan" from my stepfather. It was a real mess and I got it cheap. I worked at a hardware store and used a lot of "reclaimed" items to restore it.

    I'm not really spiritual, that is true but I have a moral code that I hold myself to.

    I invested my time in myself, pursuing women just isn't something I was good at or wanted to do. I went back to school, travelled around and learned to be self sufficient. Bought a beautiful old farm house and started over.

    Why should I risk losing it all again? Everyone seems to be playing with a different rulebook anyway.

    I will stick by my comment about women asking men out, these "gatherers" seem to me to be a not very believable work of fiction. Women simply don't ask men out very often. Most men I know have never been asked out. If they don't initiate they remain single and while most men as you say aren’t "happy" being celibate, you should ask yourself why some men would chose this over asking women out.

    Until you can put yourself in mens shoes and at least try to understand the difficulties we face, you shouldn't give advice that is only going to make things harder for everyone.

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    Yves 5 months ago

    Did you not say that the one woman left you when you were 29? Did you buy your house at age 19? In any event, if you are happy, that's great. Most men are not happy if they are celibate, unless they have a rich spiritual life. You don't come across as spiritual, but perhaps you are. Mostly, you sound like someone who thinks all women are like your girlfriend of long ago. Anyway, thanks for commenting, Smarmy.

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    Smarmy2 5 months ago

    I had trouble logging in and created a new account.

    Now I read your reply and you say that I have "deep, internal conflicts or issues to work out"

    Nope, I'm a pretty outgoing positive and happy person, I have lots of friends, both male and female, a progressive political bend and a solid moral core.

    I'm just happier on my own. I'm not into casual sex and understand the social and legal pitfalls women present in the modern world. I lost everything I had in the last relationship, my finances were left in a shambles, I lost my home of 10 years. A house I had spent many long hours restoring.

    But mostly I watched my friends go through worse, losing access to their children on top of losing their homes. Some are single dads struggling with a society that doesn't seem to include them.

    I got to this thread from a link on a forum discussing Tesla, I simply agree with his philosophy and would rather invest my time in more fulfilling pursuits.

    Dating is confusing, I don't pretend to understand it. But I do know that doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result is the definition of insanity.

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    Cackus 5 months ago

    Wow, Pretty harsh on Smarmy.

    One male poster wrote :

    "All that said, many men are coming to the only possible logical conclusion concerning this imbalance-- that the only way for him to not lose (and end up completely emotionally, psychologically, and physically exhausted, along with potentially financially drained) is to not play-- i.e. eschewing marriage/children…. only engaging in short-term or hook-up relations, etc. while leaving women to their own devices."

    Here this guy decides that he isn't into the "hook ups" and short term relationships that you argue are the prerogative of the "gatherer male" and you decide after his one post he has "..some deep, internal conflicts or issues to work out." For simply stating he gave up on dating.

    Yet in another post you say it's just fine for women to make that same decision

    You have also completely ignored what several male posters have said about womens bad reactions to gentlemanly advances. Women can be quite harsh in their rejections no matter how innocent and well mannered. It doesn't take to many harsh rejections for men to say "I'm not doing that again"

    You might try doing a little research.. Just to get you started.

    https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/the-squeaky-w...

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-308...

    https://theblog.okcupid.com/your-looks-and-your-in...

    If this message is posted and not just censored for disagreeing with you I hope some of your readers will take a look and maybe learn a few things about the realities men (and women) face in the modern dating world.

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    Yves 5 months ago

    Smarmy...Not all men have given up as you have. One bad relationship is no reason to stop trying, but that's your perogative. I imagine you have some deep, internal conflicts or issues to work out. It's not too late.

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    Smarmy 5 months ago

    This is an interesting thread. I came here through a roundabout channel. I don't date (never have) I married a girl I went to HS with when she asked me out.She left me when I was 29 and I never dated again. I'm 46 now .

    My experiences as a man suggest that you have created a really unrealistic strawman.

    I'm 6'2" tall extremely fit and handsome. (I used to model underwear you may see me if you buy hanes lol) Women don't ask men out and "gathering" doesn't work for men. To put it bluntly I'm one of the very few men that women do ask out and it's a rare event. For the average guy it's like being struck by lightning, winning the lotto and being eaten by a bear on the same day, it just doesn't happen.

    If men don't ask women out they are single.

    A lot of men just gave up. leaving the few odd (an I mean ODD in a bad way) men who hit on everything with a heartbeat to represent them .

    If you want a decent guy you have to take the initiative, otherwise you will get one type of man, and he's the type you should avoid.

    This article is bad advice.

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    Yves 5 months ago

    Jimmy...How unfortunate that you are willing to buy into the fear-mongering of men who are too cowardly to step up and be a man. These men blame women for their problems. If any man or woman consistently has bad luck with the opposite sex, the problem is with them, much more so than the other party. Time to grow up or be forever disappointed. That goes for either sex.

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    Jimmy 5 months ago

    Well, the sheer number of men coming here to disagree with your text is enough to show its at least flawed. I myself don't want to risk losing daily connection to my children in a divorce so I'm already doing the math and use a surrogate in India or Ukraine. Women today only brings risk of major suffering. I'm definately not risking my neck !!!

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    Yves 5 months ago

    Never be afraid to play. If you never play, you've already lost. Plenty of people manage to date, get married, have children and live reasonably happy lives. Most of these people are "average" and not rich. I've meet plenty of them all the time. You're an intelligent guy. Try to figure it out by looking at yourself first, instead of having preconceived notions about everyone else. Best of luck.

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    Muscrat 5 months ago

    If I showed a lack of manners it was because you find me at the end of a long road that has left me feeling more than a little confused and abused.

    The last thing I need are subtle hints and confusing body language. I honestly can't tell flirting from just being nice.

    You are correct in that I think it's time I changed my perspective. I started with cheerful optimism moved on to, this is going to take a lot of work then, if it happens it happens and that is where I was when I find this article describing men who wait for women as gatherers, so yes I was more than a little insulted and responded in anger.

    After reading this and other blogs here I'm getting to the point where it's time to concede. I have no idea what is expected of me and probably never will.

    Good luck to you

    "It's a strange game, the only wining move is not to play."

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    Yves 5 months ago

    Muscrat, The rest of your comment was too long to post, but you said this: "The point I'm making is that the current situation in our society makes asking women out problematic at best. Men are just recovering from job losses (a big blow to confidence) Workplace rules have made it clear that a misstep might be the end of your career and frankly it's simply not a good idea.

    Telling women they shouldn’t pursue a man they are interested in is a terrible idea. Opportunities are few and I don’t' see that trend reversing itself.

    I would also add that the men who are good at asking women out are probably the last men you should go out with. Having "game" is not something a good man should have. That's advice about the way men are from a man you should take it to heart. Bad men have "game" very very bad men have more. Go to a PUA site and read if you think I'm joking. I think it has a lot to do with some of the hatred women feel towards men, the only interactions they have are from men that should probably be in prison. As far as men are, in the dating "game" the scum rise to the top."

    Just to clarify, I did not tell women not to pursue men, per se. Rather, I have told women to let a man know she is interested in a subtle way, so that he can feel confident is approaching her. All she has to do is smile, make eye contact, say hello and introduce herself. He should be able to take it from there. Confidence in a man is appealing. I would say that you are a "glass half empty" kind of guy. Time to try a new perspective. The one you have clearly isn't working for you. This time around, you showed some manners. That's an improvement already!

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    Yves 5 months ago

    I meant that your comment about "toys" is inaccurate. When I use my iPhone to comment, it sometimes changes certain words.

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    Muscrat 5 months ago

    " I have allowed this comment through since you cleaned up your language, unlike the last comment I was forced to delete"

    As I didn't use and bad language in my previous posts to this blog I can only conclude that it is the content of my argument you disagreed with and chose to censor for that reason.

    As to my comment being "immaculate" I have no idea what you mean by that, is it well dressed or free from fault, flaw and blemish?

    Please clarify, I wish to understand the rules here.

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    Yves 5 months ago

    Muscat, I have allowed this comment through since you cleaned up your language, unlike the last comment I was forced to delete. Nevertheless, your comment is highly immaculate. Sex toys are generally used by men and women in relationships "for fun." I think sex toys are ridiculous, but that's just me. Porn, on the other hand is in a category all its' own. It will ultimately destroy a man, unlike silly sex toys. Two very different things.

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    Yves 5 months ago

    David, Now you know how women feel.

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    Muscrat 5 months ago

    " I hope you don't fall into the pornography trap. It's hard to claw your way out of that."

    I do agree with you on this one, porn to men is like a dildo or vibrator to a women. It's a substitute for human sexual interaction that promotes unrealistic expectations and odd fetishes.

    Men will be stimulated by the young thin and willing women they see in porn.

    Women will be stimulated by devices of size and activity that no human mans parts could replicate.

    Both are quite destructive.

    For men I would suggest that exercise can help and there are herbal remedies that can decrease your sex drive when it becomes inconvenient.

    I have created a mix of Licorice root, Saw palmetto, Chase tree berry extract and other natural ingredients that can significantly reduce the physical cravings for sex (and other problems) associated with longterm male celibacy. In fact it's the number one seller on my website I can't keep up with orders.

    So while I wait and look for a trustworthy women worth committing to a longterm relationship with I am not burdened by the intense sexual cravings that lead men to pursue less fulfilling relationships and can provide help to the many men who have decided to avoid sexual relations with women and those who are involuntarily celibate.

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    David 5 months ago

    Here is the bottom line. When it comes to dating and romance these days, more and more men are saying..."Thanks, but no thanks."

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    Yves 5 months ago

    Thanks, Paula, for telling it like it is. Some of these guys also have "mommy" issues. Hard to tell what caused Jomama's anger. Such a shame to live with such unhappiness. What a waste of time.

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    Paula 5 months ago from Beautiful Upstate New York

    Jomama.....Tsk tsk....You're very bitter and thus you are rude. Gather your toddler toys and play elsewhere until you learn to use manners.

    It must have been a really special, intelligent, superior

    woman, above your maturity level who dumped you and hurt you so badly. Sorry, but you're not allowed to take it out on the ladies of the Hub.

    Just try to be worthy next time. DROP the attitude.

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    Yves 5 months ago

    I never said hard-line feminism didn't create this mess. And by the way, I am not your honey. Do not call me that again.

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    Yves 5 months ago

    Sounds like you're stuck on the money issue. My feeling is that you are not capable of being a friend to women because you despise them. Good luck to you. I mean that. I hope you don't fall into the pornography trap. It's hard to claw your way out of that.

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    Jomama 5 months ago

    Just another typical feminist apologist article that shows its hand early with lines like

    " Nevertheless, because women are ever the adapters, they have chosen to compensate for the rise of the culturally androgynous male, aka, the "male gatherer." She has now assumed his previous role---that of protector and provider."

    Sorry to break it to you honey but it was feminism and women who created the gatherer male not the other way around.

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    Muscrat 5 months ago

    I just attended a mandatory training session at the university I work at.

    After watching it I would sooner walk across a busy highway at night dressed in black blindfolded than ask a women out given the universities position.

    But just for the sake of argument I'll discount the very real possibility of institutional action if my approach is unwelcome and the person I asked overreacts.

    Why should I take the risk of rejection and pay for the date? My gender?

    That's what this article boils down to, "men must do this". No men (or women) mustn't do anything they should both have a choice to do what they feel will bring them happiness.

    That said most , not some most, of my friends are %100 MGTOW. and by that I mean they are celibate men who are decent caring people with progressive political leanings good jobs and female friends. They will never ask a women out and would turn them down if they did. I really can't blame them, the risks are so high, the reward so low. I still have hope on finding a nice person who hasn't slept with 5 guys (and before you go on a tirade about it being ok for men to sleep with 10 women, it's not and I haven't and wouldn't) I've had 2 relationships both long term. I've never cheated but both cheated on me.

    I still haven't given up, but I will not ask them out. It's very clear that in today’s society it's much much better to leave that burden to the women. I have enough pressure to fulfil the laundry list of qualification most women seem to have today. Dating seems more like a job interview.

    Must be over 6' ...check

    Must have abs.... almost lol

    Must have a degree...check

    Must make over $175,000 a year crap....

    Nice car, Full head of hair, etc etc etc...

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    Yves 5 months ago

    I am not making that assumption, Monk. However, I do know what women want. And actually, society has been kind to men for the most part. Japan may have some serious trouble if their population begins to dwindle even further---same as China.

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    MQNK 5 months ago

    My point was why do you assume to know what men want? Who is to say that men want the female role or to be as you say "gatherers". I for example just want to be left alone. Many men just want to be left alone at this point.

    I can imagine that you might want society to exist or thrive, but you have to understand that society was never kind to men. We are viewed as disposable when we turn 18 years old. As such, many men have chosen to simply abandon both concepts of gatherers and hunters. It's just a matter of time before men start neglecting sex completely. If you do not believe me, just look at the Japanese economy. Men are going leaving society in masses.

    You might be making the assumption that men care about what happens to society. You will be surprised how easy it is for men to live good lives with very little and how many are prepared to abandon society whenever they feel like it.

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    Yves 5 months ago

    Hi Monk...I actually do not make that assumption, hence, the article on men who prefer what used to be the woman's role, If a couple has an understanding that the man stays home and she supports the family, then that is fine.

    I am mostly talking about dating and what women like, as well as the fact that if a man never had to pursue, he will simply become a male gatherer, which generally does not work out because male gatherers generally do not commit. They simply enjoy the ride, no matter how many baby momma' they leave behind. That's just not attractive or good for society. Just look at all the resentful boys who don't have dads.

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    MQNK 5 months ago

    Why do you assume that man still want to be man?

    I don't get this, we had feminism which fought to get women equal rights and out of the kitchen. Basically to make women not have to be housewives.

    Which is wonderful, but why do so many of you assume that men want to be the traditional man? Maybe men were waiting for an opportunity to relinquish themselves from their traditional gender roles.

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