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Why Women Are Frustrated and Confused about Men and Dating

Updated on December 01, 2016
The "Male Gatherer." Not quite what we had in mind when we asked for equal rights.
The "Male Gatherer." Not quite what we had in mind when we asked for equal rights.

Many women are confused and frustrated about men and dating....and they don’t know why. Here is my take on this malaise: At one time, men were the hunters and women were the gatherers. On an intuitive level, this essence is still alive today. However, since the advent of the sixties sexual revolution, American cultural standards have shifted.

Men and women are exhibiting somewhat androgynous behavior. Mind you, not all men and women are embracing a form of androgyny, but many are. Thus, the distinctions between the sexes are blurred. Our sexual revolution has created confusion about the relational roles between male and female.

Consequently, there is a whole lot of friction going on in the world of dating.

For example, in recent decades, women have begun hunting and gathering for the male, so to speak. Traditional roles are going by the wayside. In and of itself, this is not necessarily a bad thing, but it is confusing. Why so? Because our society has inadvertently produced a new male prototype who, because of free love, has become adept at not putting in the time and effort to pursue a woman who truly interests him, the way men used to do.

Such men are convinced that it is perfectly fine for him to be "a gatherer," but the problem is, women are not natural "hunters." Nevertheless, because women are ever the adapters, they have chosen to compensate for the rise of the culturally androgynous male, aka, the "male gatherer." She has now assumed his previous role---that of protector and provider.

Who is the male gatherer? He is the male who claims he has embraced equality; however, he has actually embraced laziness when it comes to dating. You've come across him. He is the guy who let's the women come to him. He does not pursue women. He is very self-centered. His take is, "If women want equality, let her prove herself to me."

Hmmm...

1960s Cultural Movement

The downside of the sexual revolution is that it has discouraged commitment (and romance.)
The downside of the sexual revolution is that it has discouraged commitment (and romance.)

According to Linda J. Waite, the author of The Negative Effects of Cohabitation, "Cohabitating men tend to be less committed to the relationship."

The 1960's cultural movement had good intentions and some positive outcomes. However, the sexual revolution has failed us when it came to love, romance and commitment. Unfortunately, too many American men have morphed into something we did not foresee coming. The "gatherer" is not adept at committing, pursuing or providing.

Herein lies the crux of the matter.

Feminists had the right idea about wanting more equality, as in equal pay, but they got a little side-tracked by the free love thing. What they didn't realize is that most men are more than happy to accept the "No Strings Attached" philosophy of "free love." His philosophy goes something like this: "If we live together, I will enjoy the convenience of having a quasi-wife, but without any messy responsibilities or financial risk."

The male gatherer is into low stress relationships. In the event he should decide the woman doesn't meet his needs after all, he has no problem leaving. His reasons?

"She was too much trouble."

"Who needs drama?"

Meanwhile, he takes pleasure in having sex on a regular basis. Gratification with no commitment and no repercussions---That's his motto.

Yet sadly, women offer themselves up to this so-called male "feminist" who is actually a "gatherer" in disguise. The reality is that the male gatherer has lost his instinct for honest romance and true commitment. He is not the gentle, caring, fair minded man he claimed to be.

Courting women isn't part of the gatherers' paradigm. He believes relationships should be easy and uncomplicated. Easy come, easy go. His expectations do not mirror the truth, which is that anything or anyone worth having requires time and effort.

Thus, having experienced disappointment in dating for the umpteenth time, many women carry around a perpetual cloud of frustration and anger. Nevertheless, not wanting to appear passive, women continue the hunt. “We have to go after guys," they insist. "If we wait, nothing happens." "What choice do we have?"

Women who feel this way have a point, but their premise is wrong. She has another choice. She can let the man seek her. Here’s the thing. Women actually liked having the man pursue her. His effort proved he had a level of interest. His pursuit of her was hot and efficient - sort of like the engine of a BMW. But the gatherer guy....well...he lacks drive. He's a Ford Pinto or maybe a Volkswagen bus. The easy love thing works for him, but it isn't working for her. Apparently, easy love isn't so easy after all. Unwed mothers who struggle to raise their children without father's know this better than anyone.

Percentage of Single Mothers Who are Hispanic
Percentage of single mothers who are White
Percentage of Single Mothers Who are Black
Percentage of Single Mothers Who are American Indian
42%
25%
67%
52%
Kids Count Data Center

What Needs to Happen

"Free love" has caused so many misunderstandings between men and women, primarily because women are wired for commitment, not just casual sex.
"Free love" has caused so many misunderstandings between men and women, primarily because women are wired for commitment, not just casual sex.

So what's a woman to do? First, she must learn to recognize the gatherer. She must then stop throwing herself at his feet. Forever.

Male gatherer guy does not have the inclination or the stamina for true romance women crave. He always leaves women feeling emotionally shortchanged because, in fact, he is emotionally stunted. Chances are high that he didn't have a father to teach him how to be a man. In any event, any woman who truly wants an emotionally satisfying relationship must first decide to place more value on her worth, her time, her career and her passions. In so doing, she changes her own perspective about the value of her life. Women must realize that meeting a great guy is icing on the cake. Icing is delicious and it can make a lovely difference---but it is still optional.

The woman has to step up her game as well. She must learn to appreciate her womanhood and everything that being a woman entails. She doesn't have to become a man to be equal. By virtue of being a human being, she is already equal.

I knew a man who was a former hippie. He was highly educated, but the hippie mentality never really left him. Anyway, he told me that he had lived in a commune and that he really enjoyed his life. He talked about how fun it was to get naked and paint women's bodies. This, I gathered, was a type of foreplay. He went on to say that the only disagreeable aspect of commune life was that the women were, "Really messed up."

I guess so. Having multiple partners, not knowing who the father of your child is and whether or not your lover(s) even remembered you from the day or night before would make any woman "a mess." The dirty little secret about 1960's "free love" men is that they were rampant chauvinists. They made love, smoked pot, quoted Nietzsche, Karl Marx and existential poetry. They didn't do much else. Meanwhile, the woman cooked, cleaned, scrabbled for food and even made herself available to other lovers at the request of her "main man." You know, equal love and all that. It's no wonder why these women were "messed up."

Meet the New Boss: Same As the Old Boss

Tired mom.
Tired mom.

The point is that male gatherers of the 1960's sexual revolution got used to the perks of free love. Not hard to comprehend. The problem we have today is that many men are content to view women in the same misogynistic manner as did the hippies of the 1960's. Unfortunately, women are still falling for it. The problem is, if the going gets rough because "she has too many expectations that don't match with my idea of fairness," then male gatherer believes he is free to leave. His thought is, "I'll go my way and she can go her way."

To be sure, not all men act badly. I am not making that assertion. What I am saying is that society has created the "male gatherer" and he is someone who does not understand that love and commitment actually matter. He thinks what matters is that he keeps his freedom. After all, no one taught him how to respect women. His frustrated mom was working all of the time, and good ole' dad was MIA. Maybe his mom even lost the values she once had. Thus, the male gatherer had no positive role models to teach him what it means to become a grown-up.

Shifting Focus

Common Reasons Why Men Don't Commit: Rutgers University's National Marriage Project

  • Males can get sex without marriage more easily than in times past
  • Males can enjoy the benefits of having a wife by cohabiting rather than marrying
  • Men want to avoid divorce and its financial risks
  • Men fear that marriage will require too many changes and compromises
  • Males face few social pressures to marry

So naturally, it behooves the woman to shift her focus toward worthwhile men who actually enjoy pursuing a woman, who exhibit patience and caring, and who are willing to ignore the trend that presupposes men and women are exactly the same in every way. Men and women are not exactly the same. Our bodies are different, our brains are wired differently, we communicate differently, we have different mannerisms, and unique needs. But the male gatherer would have you believe this cannot be true because that wouldn't be fair or equal---for him.

Long story short, women must become adept at letting the male gatherer go. In other words, she must learn to pare down the dating field. The smart woman values herself far too much to waste her time on a man who treats her like she is worthless.

Finally, women must learn to become responsible for all the bad romantic choices she has made. She must take personal responsibility for her poor decisions. Only then will she be able to turn her life around, and thus begin to let go of the anger and frustration she had carried before. She will now be in a position to proactively guide her dating life in a manner that will finally allow her to experience true love and romance---the kind that has purpose, meaning, and staying power.

The smart woman does not play hard to get---she is hard to get. Let me explain. Playing hard to get suggests that a woman feigns disinterest in a man to whom she is attracted. Being hard to get has to do with the psyche of a woman who is selective about the kind of men she chooses to date in the first place. Once a woman has determined she is interested in someone, she is free to capture his attention. However, she does this with care. She does not rush into a situation without first finding out what she is getting into. She learns to make better choices, always with long term consequences in mind. She becomes responsible and more thoughtful.

Dating: An Art

Dating is an acquired skill which requires good communication. Some women mistakenly feel they must open up about every single thing that has ever happened to them because that is only "fair and honest." But the truth is, there is no reason for any woman or man to reveal everything about their feelings or their past relationships in the beginning stages of dating. We must open up at our own pace. In so doing, we are respecting our parameters and sense of privacy---and this is as it should be. A secure partner will respect your need to share life stories at your own pace. In fact, no one really has to reveal everything that isn't relevant. On the other hand, excessive secrecy in any individual is a red flag.

A woman who is thoroughly uncomplicated and too eager to please will not attract the love of a man who has the masculine fiber women crave. Her confidence as a woman, combined with her feminine spirit, is the magnet that consistently attracts truly decent men her way. The woman who knows how to date well is very much at ease with her femininity. A worthwhile man will readily pursue a woman like her, but he is easily bored with a woman who does not provide him with any challenges whatsoever. A good man isn't looking for a doormat to walk over. The worthwhile man respects a woman who has a backbone. Only gatherer's hate being challenged.

Positive dating also recognizes and appreciates the core differences between men and women. In truth, regardless of our cultural leanings, it's actually quite pleasurable to embrace the distinctions between male and female rather than constantly fighting against them or trying to act like the other gender. Masculine and feminine traits actually complement one another quite nicely---sort of like two pieces of a puzzle.

From now on, let the male gatherer do whatever he wants to do, just so long as he doesn't do it with you. Your responsibility as a woman is to turn your attention toward the man who shows you that he cares---through his actions. Listen to your woman's heart and mind. Only then will you be assured of love that will stand the test of time.

Truly....Savvy

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    • savvydating profile image
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      savvydating 12 days ago

      Most women are not reality TV stars. It is not appropriate to call women evil. I know plenty of good women, who are truly decent, responsible women. Good and bad people exist everywhere.

    • The Real Truth Again 12 days ago

      I know that i have commented already on this Topic which i also commented as The God's honest truth which this will be the very last time that i will make a comment here just to add a little bit more to my comment that is really true what i have said already. Today most of the women which i will Admit are Very Independent now which they Really Don't need a man to Survive anymore since they certainly Can make it on their own as well with the kind of Salary that they're now making these days which has a lot to do with it as well. But the real problem also is that these women think they're the Greatest Thing walking the face of this Earth since they have the Worst Attitude Problem with no Good Personality either which is a real shame how the women of today are unfortunately since Society has really Changed them for the Worst. Just look at all these Reality Shows that they now have on TV as well as the Media that has certainly Corrupted their minds which has Brought out the very bad side of them and made many of them Very Evil nowadays which is real sad since Most of them i will say really have No Respect for us men at all the way that they talk to us now. There are many of us Very Good Men out there that are Very Innocent and would know how to treat a Good Woman with a lot of Love And Respect which unfortunately they're just too Blind to see that since they Really Think that all of us men are No Good now. It is very unfortunate that many of these women were Really with the Wrong Men at one time that really Treated them very Horribly which is very sad for them for the ones that had this happened to them already which i do feel very Bad for them for the ones that went through this which is very sad if that was the case. But just remember that there are many of us Good Honest Sincere Men out there as well. Well thank you very much for your support again. Peace.

    • savvydating profile image
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      savvydating 13 days ago

      Bob...Not all women set the bar that low. That being said, others' spend too much time making excuses for bad men. Can't say I've been one of them, which is why I am compelled to write articles with the hope of helping women and men.

    • bob smacker 13 days ago

      Lets face it... Millions of years of evolution has programmed us to be attracted to certain people. When you think your "choosing" someone think again. The feminist fight for equality is a good one when it comes to the workplace and education and class privilege, etc. But in sexual selection there is no such thing as equality. You're selecting the fittest mate/mates available to you. The "gatherer" man is just another man looking to spread his seed far and wide, same as any other man. Women are attracted to men who have the qualities that will produce offspring capable of producing more offspring and not necessarily men with whom are nice people to have a relationship.

    • savvydating profile image
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      savvydating 2 weeks ago

      Freesia....I love your comment. You laid it all out there. No excuses. No victim mentality. I applaud you for moving forward, even though it was very, very difficult for you, both financially and emotionally.

      You are the type of woman who can look in the mirror and say to herself, "You know what, I like myself." There is no better feeling than that.

      Quite a few of the men who have commented here will never be able to say that to themselves.

      Sadly, I have had delete plenty of other comments that were so abusive and vile, there was no way I could allow them to be printed here. Such men, as you say, are indeed sad and pathetic.

      A real man wants to love, adore, and provide for his family. He also understands her contribution, in and out of the home---inasmuch as any man can. Lol.

      Thank you for commenting. You've become a woman who is worth her weight in gold. Never forget that. Just keep moving forward. You will be just fine, with or without a man. I know one thing. A good man would be lucky to have you. ;)

    • Freesia1 2 weeks ago

      This post caught my eye as I was browsing through diff articles and seeing some of the comments really opened my eyes to the unfortunate, very sad and ridiculously cynical men out there...

      I'm 34 have three children and I divorced my husband... I am the one that had to pay him to leave me alone ... He hadn't put in anything financial ... I bought the house with my money... He contributed very little if any to daily expenses and was an insecure man who blamed me for everything ... He was both physically and emotionally abusive ... I felt it took me an eternity to muster up the courage to leave ... Eventually I did and financially it was draining on me ... I don't get a penny in child support.. I still own my own home, take care of my children, have a career and still sort myself out mentally on a daily basis. The point being, it took me a long while to realize I was married to a 'gatherer' and it started off right when we were dating but I was too young and naive to notice..

      Even though I went through all of that physical and mental abuse ...not to mention a few hundred grand poorer I am still not half as cynical or jaded as the rest of these pathetic creatures who have decided to make completely idiotic comments. I believe if you constantly work on being aware (faults and or achievements) that is what you attract. And women don't need to be 'taken care of' financially... I think the ones (women) who have a high sense of self worth, just need to be persued, adored and respected ... And none of that has anything to do with money ...

    • savvydating profile image
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      savvydating 2 weeks ago

      Hello StepTo.....Being uncomplicated is not a bad thing, in and of itself. I went on to say that sometimes people wear their heart on their sleeve or say too much too fast. That particular type of behavior scares people off, especially men. My point is that is best to be relaxed on a date, as opposed to revealing one's life history or innermost feelings about everything.

      Secondly, some people are truly androgynous. A small percentage of people truly have no interest in sex. If either is who they are, there is nothing wrong with it, for they are truly being themselves.

      In the article, I am referring to men who have abdicated all responsibility to care for a female. Such men want the convenience of a woman without the responsibility. A real man would never approve of that type of behavior. Just ask any father who wants the best for his daughter. I've written a hub about male and female "energy" and how they differ. It is about valuing womankind for the gifts they offer, which are different from the gifts men offer. The gist is that a world without women would be an unhappy and very different place.

      Thanks for commenting and asking such relevant questions.

    • StephTo 2 weeks ago

      1) Why is being uncomplicated a bad thing? What if that is what you are?

      2) It is always assumed that women who are not overly feminine / men who are not overly masculine are fighting their true nature. What if that is just how they are?

    • savvydating profile image
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      savvydating 3 weeks ago

      YaReally.....What a catchy name! It's good to be picky, but not so picky that we find we're down to one date every seven years. Lol. And yes, the hook-up thing gets old after awhile, as it really is the fastest way to become jaded. However, it sounds like you are considering a new perspective. That's awesome!

      Dating isn't particularly easy these days, but if you go out on a date and think of it as a way to get to know someone and nothing more (in the beginning), you might have greater success. I have an article about dating (101), which you may find helpful. Thanks for commenting.

    • YaReally 3 weeks ago

      Great article!

      "The woman has to step up her game as well" YaReally!

      It is hard to find someone special with the way dating is now, and the social media mess. Certainly too many hookups have made me jaded, but I need to care a little less about flaws and see the good.

    • savvydating profile image
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      savvydating 3 weeks ago

      What I am trying to convey, David, is that life isn't always what we deem fair. None of that matters. It is how we handle the things that are thrown our way that really determines our character. It is also how we do whatever we can to lessen chaos, for there are some things we can do. The rest is life living itself. We have to learn to handle life. Very few men and women understand this. Why be common? If you choose, you can do do much better.

    • savvydating profile image
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      savvydating 3 weeks ago

      David, I understand that you really want a woman and that you are tired of escorts. It is time for you to refocus. At this juncture, I truly believe you could benefit from therapy....or maybe military school. You have a lot of growing up to do. But you are young and you are reaching out a bit. That's a good thing. But seriously, a fresh perspective could help you.

    • savvydating profile image
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      savvydating 3 weeks ago

      A lot of people pay for their own gas and insurance, and much, much more. Stop whining and work more. Grow up.

    • savvydating profile image
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      savvydating 4 weeks ago

      David, No foul language is allowed. I just deleted another of your comments. For someone who wants to study medicine, you spend a whole lot of time on the Internet.

      In any event, Nothing in your life will change until you decide to become a man. Right now, you seem to be stuck in junior high. Time to grow up, unless you want to be lonely forever.

    • savvydating profile image
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      savvydating 4 weeks ago

      You've dug deep, Mark Joseph. I assume you are speaking to David. I appreciate your taking the time to share the things you have learned. I hope more men, (and women) who are sincerely trying to figure things out and who want to take personal responsibility for their lives, will listen to your words.

    • Mark Joseph Huber 4 weeks ago

      I guess I mean that me, being a man, if I were to just hang around men and consciously make an effort to deny my attraction to women, I'm fighting evolutionary biology, I'm fighting against natural feelings and emotions that have existed since men and women have existed. That's all I meant by that. And hey, I know how it goes...I'm not trying to convince anyone other than myself of anything. I would ask, Are you really attracted to women because of your chemistry together? What does that even mean, to you? These are just examples of the kinds of questions that are important to ask ourselves. By way of example, I have a problem losing myself in my relationships with women. Sacrificing who I am and what I do to make them happy. My parents' relationship was, and is, like this. Why then, after I have honestly looked back at my relationships and studied them, do I somehow miraculously, and consistently, attract women who are narcissists? Saying to myself, "I am an empath, and I attract narcissists" is much different than saying "I'm just being myself, and the women I date suck." Because when you dig deeper, and dig deeper into yourself--figuring out why you say and do the things you do, why you surround yourself with the kinds of people you do, and the people you date--there's just no way you can come out of that without thinking, Wow, it turns out I've been responsible for my own happiness the entire time. It turns out that not some, not half, not most, but all of the responsibility for my happiness lies on my shoulders. Because not all women suck and not all men suck. You're just choosing the ones that suck, and not by coincidence. You have to figure out why, and maybe less people get this than I realize or I'm just wrong, but this takes extraordinary effort, determination, and honesty with one's self. (Did that make any sense whatsoever?)

    • savvydating profile image
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      savvydating 4 weeks ago

      Thank you, Mark Joseph. You are absolutely right. You cannot begin to imagine how refreshing it is to hear the truth. We are all tainted by our life experiences---and that is normal. However, there comes a time when we have to grow past our childhood (and even our adult experiences) in order to become adults who are capable of living meaningful lives, which include others.,,

    • Straws 4 weeks ago

      It is pathetic that the falsehood in human society has brought people to this steep cliff of vanity, meaninglessness, and alienation: There just has to be more to life than this senseless obsession with sex. All the while that is happening, your life is ticking away-tick, tick, tick: Everybody deserves real love and meaning, and no one should throw herself at man who only wants sexual gratification--that is vain and soon runs out of gas. I know that society has waxed very complicated recently, but there has to be more to life than this empty search for shoddy, shabby human beings with no morals, values, or sense of commitment. That is a plastic, artificial person who does not even deserve your time; and a subway station before an on-coming train may be the next stop for such a meaningless person. Against this backdrop, I strongly recommend the book "Crashing Streams of Change" to your forum's members; it will fix a lot of things for many of you folks in this senseless search that which is not there.

    • Mark Joseph Huber 4 weeks ago

      It's always going to boil down to this. Why are you/we attracting the bad ones? When people date, many times, they align their weaknesses with the other person's weaknesses and not their strengths, essentially recreating whatever environment they grew up in. I know that I've done this. I think you just have to recognize that that's what you're doing, and really ask yourself what you value in yourself, first, and then what you value in a woman. They're out there. They are just hard to find, because we are hard to find. But, I think, you really have to be right with yourself first and foremost, learn from your past, and proceed cautiously, but you have to proceed. If you just say to hell with all women; you really are rejecting a major part of yourself.

    • savvydating profile image
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      savvydating 4 weeks ago

      Alex, First of all, you are not a Christian. No Christian man would have such a low opinion of women.

      You also said this about my article: "Also you mentioned how women were testing men and they failed “almost constantly."

      My article does not say that.

      As for cost-benefit analysis, women are neither things, products, nor business ventures. If you cannot understand that marriage is a partnership, then I don't know what else to say to you. The truth of the matter is that most women do most of the work inside the home; they spend more time caring for the children; they almost always buy and prepare meals. They also look after the budget and pay the bills. The list goes on and on. Furthermore, they usually work outside of the home---since most households need two incomes. In other words, except when they are asleep, they are often tending to something, if they are married and have children.

      Marriage is a partnership. Have you considered that in your years of dating, you may have come off as condescending or even as a jerk? I have to say, despite the "nice" comments you made about me, one is still left with the impression that you do not like women at all. That's a big turn-off. That and this whole "cost-benefit analysis" mentality.

      I asked my son (who enjoys dating) about this MGTOW thing. He said that everyone he knows loves dating and that they are "all about dating." The thing you described to him sounds foreign and regrettable, as far as he is concerned. I feel the same way.

      Long story short, if some men want to avoid women, maybe that is a good thing for women who want to date. She would just as soon not date someone who thinks so little of womankind.

      On the other hand, (and you may or may not be an exception) this also means that the porn industry will become stronger than ever. Given their treatment of women, that is a huge negative for our society.

      As someone once said, if you want to find a good woman, you have to become a better man. I have met good men and good women throughout my life. Both sexes have good people and bad people.

      The question to ask yourself, Alex, is "Why are you attracting the bad?"

    • savvydating profile image
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      savvydating 4 weeks ago

      Alex, I believe it was the following comment which "struck a nerve," to use your phrase:

      "This is the main point I want to drive home. You ladies seem to want to pick the pros of feminism and the pros of traditionalism. Either you are a feminist with a career and equality and all that, or you learn how to be a traditional wife and mother. Quit demanding both. Get over yourselves, you are no more important than we are. You are not a treasure to be found, or a heart to be won. Good men(and I am not necessarily saying I am one) rarely ask out women these days because generally speaking you all have failed the most basic of cost\benefit analysis’s."

      Alex, I will address the above paragraph one day. It could be that I was pressed for time when I commented on your first comment. I thank you for elaborating further and I will get back to you.

    • Alex Th 4 weeks ago

      If you will indulge me further, I would like to comment one more time. You mentioned that “women weren’t the property of men” in response to my other comment. I never once said that, nor did I even allude to it. You told me to get over myself. I never said or gave off the impression that I somehow thought highly of myself. In fact I even mentioned how I wasn’t “saying I was even one of the good ones” You also said that no one would mind if I were to indeed go my own way. I didn’t say I was a mgtow, but allow me to bring your attention to something. The Japanese herbivore men, while for a different reason, have gone there own way. The Japanese are currently experiencing a shrinking society, due to about half the men(actually slightly higher, last survey I read) not wanting anything to do with women. Look it up, its out there. So while it is true that if I indeed do shun marriage and women, that “no one would mind” but if enough men catch on to this(and there is a lot more of that mindset than you would think, I was shocked at how many of the men I knew had similar beliefs) society will indeed mind.

      I think you misunderstood my point of choosing between traditionalism and feminism. Women on average want the same rights as men and to be equal, without shouldering equal responsibility for those rights, that is what I meant. For example, only men are required to sign up for the draft(I realize that currently no one is drafted) or we cant register to vote or get federal funding for college. How is that equal? Its not. There are myriads of other examples I could bring out but I think you get the idea.

      Last observation I want to make. I have read through a myriad of other comments and your responses to them. Generally, you gave insightful comments and suggestions and or rebuttals if needed. You even post all of the negative responses (provided they are not vulgar) which most blogs of this caliber would not do. For a few minutes, I wondered how you completely missed what I said, and said I said things I did not say. I reread my lengthy comment a few times to be sure I didn’t come off as an angry upset dude, just spouting off, and I don’t think it reads that way, I surely did not mean for it too, if that is how you read it. You hit me as a very intelligent woman, with some good insight to share. Might I suggest I struck a nerve? My post was just about my experiences and how that has molded and shaped my view on women and dating etc. I didn’t even know what the red pill and mgtow and all that stuff was until about a year ago when I stumbled across a sandman video on YouTube. But that is irrelevant. Perhaps there was just enough irrefutable truth in my comment (or I am just crazy who knows lol) that really couldn’t be argued against? Maybe you know how toxic the system currently is for us men and don’t want to admit it?

    • savvydating profile image
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      savvydating 4 weeks ago

      David, your comment was too long. Here is part of it:

      "“….I live in an area where a bunch of snobby chicks live who have it all and I can give nothing to make them happy they will just take me for granted or use me. I wont put up with that. I get along with everyone I meet. The girls I am friends with their parents asked me why am I not dating them. Guess what they arent interested. I keep being told what a great guy I am than girls go do what they want. Yes I am not perfect.

      Whats wrong with going to another country to find a wife?

      Whats wrong with the dirty truth that not everyone finds love?

      Maybe I am too different from the social norm because I like to leave my bubble everyday?

      You obviously dont understand what its like pursuing women…...

      I am sorry if I hurt your feelings because women like to argue with emotions…..”.

      David, you have not hurt my feelings. The Terms of Service does not allow for vulgarity---nor do I. It is possible to get one's point across without using foul language. At this point, you are rambling and repeating yourself. I get it. You are unhappy and frustrated. Like I said, please seek counseling.

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      savvydating 4 weeks ago

      Alex...I do not know where you got the idea that women have to choose between the "traditional" wife and mother and a career. Maybe if men could have babies they might be able to conceive of another option. This isn't the Middle East, where women are men's property. Get over yourself. Furthermore, nobody cares if you decide to "go your own way." Thanks for commenting.

    • Alex Th 4 weeks ago

      I rarely ever comment on these types of articles, but I cannot resist this one. It seems like you are truly trying to help and not just point fingers. You have missed the target though, in my opinion. Almost every guy on here has expressed close to the same frustration. Men are acting in the way we must, given the current nature of the legal system, as well as how horrible a lot of women are today.

      Before I go further let me say a little about myself, I am 29 years old, a Christian, and one who believes in waiting to be married before any sexual activity. So I am not one of those you dubbed “gatherers”. I have dated moderately over the years, and frankly, the worst experiences of my life have come from being around women. I dated all kinds, tall, skinny, fat, short, religious, non-religious, you name it. They were the same in the end. I couldn’t shake the feeling that deep down they hated me, or at least men in general. I have had women break up with me because I wouldn’t sleep with them after a couple dates. They were toxic to say the least (and tons of other experiences I will spare you the details of lol).

      Back to the topic at hand, we men are constantly demonized at every turn. Let me ask you this question, what can I gain from marriage? I personally don’t believe the “surveys” that say married men are happier, I have just never seen that to be true, but I could be wrong. I was always expected to be the one to change, to accommodate, to bend over backwards, and for what? The pleasure of being around them? Not good enough. Never once did a woman do anything for me, it was all about them. Every. Single. One.

      Also you mentioned how women were testing men and they failed “almost constantly”. That is one of my biggest beefs about modern women. Shit tests (I dislike that term and will use no further vulgarity) are one of the most egotistical things a woman can do. Personally, when a woman has done that to me, and I caught on that was what she was doing, I tell her to knock it off. If it happens again I dump her faster than the Flash can run around the earth. That kind of thing is permissible for middle school, and perhaps high school students, but not adults. Big red flag there.

      This is the main point I want to drive home. You ladies seem to want to pick the pros of feminism and the pros of traditionalism. Either you are a feminist with a career and equality and all that, or you learn how to be a traditional wife and mother. Quit demanding both. Get over yourselves, you are no more important than we are. You are not a treasure to be found, or a heart to be won. Good men(and I am not necessarily saying I am one) rarely ask out women these days because generally speaking you all have failed the most basic of cost\benefit analysis’s.

      It is a sad place to be. I do not relish the thought of spending my remaining days alone, I did always want a family, and a wife and all that stuff, still do if I am being honest. I will not, however, be a slave to a woman just for her to decide one day she no longer “feels” the same way about me, I do still have respect for myself. Until you women stand up to the hordes of crazy and delusional women and feminists who have wrought this havoc, groups such as mgtow and the Japanese herbivore men will continue to rise. While I do not yet identify as one of them, I have spoken to quite a few, and they are never coming back to women, no matter what you all do. The ball is in your court ladies.

    • savvydating profile image
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      savvydating 5 weeks ago

      Why do you think you have been rejected?

    • savvydating profile image
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      savvydating 5 weeks ago

      David, best not to date women you are not attracted to. And....giving up at your young age makes no sense. Sounds like you have to rearrange your thinking a bit.

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      savvydating 5 weeks ago

      MJH, I have to agree. You are wise to state that we all need honest self reflection. Thank you for your insight.

    • MJH 5 weeks ago

      I think the women and the men here are essentially saying the same things and we're all coming from the same place--our trust has been broken and we don't feel appreciated for who we are. I guess confused gender roles contribute to this, but I think its impact is overblown. To me, people are just more narcissistic, both men and women, now than they've ever been. Thus establishing and maintaining a long term relationship with a true give and take is more difficult, whether it be with a mate or just a friend. I think women and men are making the same convenient mistake--blaming the other side instead of honest self-reflection.

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      savvydating 5 weeks ago

      John....I believe that is what I said. As for the intent behind your second sentence, good luck. You'll be frustrated soon enough.

    • John 5 weeks ago

      The ones who are frustrated should change if they don't want to be frustrated. This man is neither hunting nor gathering, and I'm not frustrated one bit.

    • savvydating profile image
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      savvydating 5 weeks ago

      Dear Mitch,

      Are you from the "West?" If not, I have nothing more to say. If you are an American, I should not have to answer this question. Believe it or not, worthwhile men are not interested in women who might possibly be interested in you.

      Thanks for sharing.

    • Mitch 6 weeks ago

      Why would any successful man in his right mind ever want to date a Westernized Women let alone get into a relationship with them? It's not worth it in any aspect whatsoever.

      I will continue to tell the younger generation to look at closely the divorce statistics, how the courts treat Men and make their own logical conclusions. But the proof is in the pudding and men are waking up and walking away from the Westernized Women and it's about time!

    • savvydating profile image
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      savvydating 7 weeks ago

      I believe I already explained why I deleted one of your comments. You used vulgarity, which is unacceptable. Furthermore, I am not required to post any comments. If you continue to behave in this childish manner, I will delete all of your comments, and I will also contact Hubpages/PairedLife about your violations. If you read my article in it's entirety, you will find that I do not blame all men or all women. I tell women they have to "step up" and take responsibility for poor choices. In other articles, I explain what that means. You would be wise to take personal responsibility as well.

    • ING 7 weeks ago

      Monks are peaceful but they know how to fight.... actually best fighters of the world if you didn't know it.

      Second nice you deleted that part where I said most of married men I know are miserable.

      I will ask again.

      Don't you think you woman are doing something really really wrong?

      Its all just man foult?

      Seriously... or you gonna delete, and reconfigure this message too?

    • savvydating profile image
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      savvydating 7 weeks ago

      ING.... I deleted one of your comments because you used foul language. It's a bit ironic that you ask me if I even know what a good man is. Unfortunately, given your hostility, you do not fit the bill. I take it you are still bitter over your last relationship. If you have decided to live a monk-like existence because of your past, that is certainly your prerogative. But last time I checked, monks are peaceful. At this juncture in your life, peace has eluded you.

      I hope that you feel happier one day, but only you can make that happen by taking responsibility for your life.

    • ING 7 weeks ago

      Majority of men I know, are aware of theyr girlfriend/wife nature, that's why they keep a lover, in case this one hits, they have a safe house. I was a monogamist now I'm a monk.

      This is the truth is not us the problem: GIRLS IS TIME TO WOMAN UP. Yes WOMAN UP.

      But looks like it's too late even if you try (you won't couse your nature is narcissistic and never admit you have a problem).

      Ladies you came one day late and one euro short.

      Good men are gone and most women don't deserve one.

      Do you even know what a good men is?

    • savvydating profile image
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      savvydating 2 months ago

      No doubt. This is why I tell women that they must step up their game as well. Otherwise, they really have only themselves to blame for all their disappointing relationships. That being said, sometimes the best of us can be fooled. Heartbreak cannot always be avoided.

      But as you know, if our only focus is on avoiding what might happen if we try, then our lives will be rather sad and pathetic. That being said, we also have to develop wisdom. That comes as we exercise higher standards for ourselves. Honestly, it isn't as difficult as some of my "gatherer" friends seem to believe. ;)

    • Suzanne Day 2 months ago

      Yes, I see this phenomenan all the time around me. Men still haven't come to grips with equality much. Having said all that, there are female equivalents of these around a lot too - the type that bleeds men dry, so quite frankly, both sexes are right to be a bit frightened of what could happen. But we all know there are quality men and women not like this, hence the search continues...

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      savvydating 2 months ago

      Suzanne Day...You hit the nail on the head. Thank you for understanding the gist of my message and for contributing your observations.

      Frankly, I am appalled that some men are apparently so unhappy about women daring to ask for equal pay and opportunity, they have somehow decided that her "gall" somehow cancels out the need for them to act like decent human beings.

      This is why I write---to help women choose partners wisely. The way some of these men think reminds me of the way men have been taught to believe in middle eastern countries. Disgusting!

    • Suzanne Day 2 months ago

      Just came back to read some more comments. This hub is quite fascinating!

      Most of the men aren't getting it.

      Women are PEOPLE too. This means, if you wouldn't ask your best friend or mate to be your servant and adore all of your crap, you can't expect a woman to, either.

      She should not have to slather on about how wonderful you are and pick up after you when what you say or think is utter tosh. If you have truly intelligent insights and qualities worth adoring, she will stick around and show her genuine interest, without it having to be chore for either sex, because you would be a naturally nice and interesting person.

      Imagine being friends with someone really stupid and they just don't get you and expect you to cater to their giant ego. This is what women can sometimes feel like when trying to have a relationship with a man. I'm sure men have felt that way too in their relationships with selfish women.

      Women are not slaves. They are not property. You have to earn a wife or girlfriend or whatever with your people qualities, just like you would with any friend in your life. Relationships which work are not about a domestic servant/sex slave partnered with a warrior. They work because both sexes are equally important and have great qualities and a friendship they share with each other.

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      savvydating 2 months ago

      And you are qualified to tell me what is moral because why? You sound like someone who doesn't like women much. What incentive would any decent woman have to feel motivated to be with you? Certainly not your money.

      Listen, if you can't be bothered to open doors and such, and if you are so interested in your money, then by all means, keep your money. You'll need it once you are old, sick and alone. Good luck finding a nurse who will put up with your demands.

    • Khalian 2 months ago

      Ah hypergamy at its finest. I have seen this instinct play out so much in my life and this article reeks of it.

      So effectively what you want is to have equality in work (e.g equal pay, opportunities etc) but firm traditional gender roles in dating?

      So when true equality knocks on the door, women start cowering behind hypergamy to assert - we want LTR material guys and they should initiate approaching etc because that is what males are supposed to do. The fact is the vast majority of female dom is not LTR material themselves.

      Women do not live up to the cost benefit analysis for most men. In a marriage, its almost always that the male spends more resources for the female (which by the way is hard to acquire) and get sex (as if that is a favor that women 'give' away) and emotional support (which is actually bilateral, women get emotional support too). Besides with the atrocious divorce arrangements where emotional support from women is gone and the financial support from men continues for years. Tell me how any of these arrangements are sound economics for men?

      All human beings respond to incentives, that is human nature. The fact that men actually shun marriage or commitment is due to the fact that the incentives for actually doing so are low and the rewards are very high.

      P.S - I am all in favor of women getting better jobs and education. Handicapping an entire sex is detrimental to society. But asking for selective privilege is morally bankrupt behavior to me.

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      savvydating 2 months ago

      The Real Truth....I'm sorry, but your comment is not entirely truthful. I am a woman and I don't act like that. Furthermore, having a career is a good thing. That being said, I do not condone cursing in anyone---male or female. It's tacky!

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      savvydating 2 months ago

      Sam...You seem to have lost the gist of this article, which has to do with respect, not entitlement.

    • Sam 2 months ago

      There's having an entitlement complex, think of it as a cold and then there's this article that's like a bio engineered virus that eats your brain the likes of which the world has never seen.

    • The Real Truth 2 months ago

      Most women nowadays that i have noticed have the Worst Attitude Problem and No Manors at all when it comes to men which these women have a very serious Mental Problem the way i see it. I have been Cursed at by a woman that i really wanted to meet at one time which i really thought that she was very nice to meet which i was very Wrong there. Today unfortunately women have Changed for the Worst of all and i Didn't do anything Wrong for her to Curse at me which i will Never understand why Most women are now like this these days. A friend that i know had the same thing happened to him as well about a month after me which he even said to me what in the world happened to these women nowadays. With so many women that now have a Career today which they really think that they're so high and mighty now which is very sad for them since they're such Losers anyway. The ones that are making a Six Figure Income are the Worst of all since they really do have very serious issues that need to be addressed since they Do need help very badly. Oh boy, quite a Change from the Good old fashioned women of years ago which Most of the women in those days were the Best of all and much Easier to meet for the men back then the way our family members had it which they were very Blessed back then.

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      savvydating 2 months ago

      Yoleen, Thank you for researching further and exposing Playboy. All the more reason not to read the magazine. I have not read Fifty Shades of Grey and don't plan to, so I cannot comment on the book or movie.

    • Say Yes To Life profile image

      Yoleen Lucas 2 months ago from Big Island of Hawaii

      I looked at some articles about Playboy bunnies. In 1963, Gloria Steinmann chose to become one, to write an article about the experience. It is called, "A Bunny's Tale", and exposes how the women are financially exploited through kickbacks, and in spite of the no-touch rules, sexual harassment is rampant. Far more recently, a Playboy bunny told about how the Hefner mansion is 40 years out of date, and is downright filthy, with people contracting infections from the swimming pool. Hefner has nightly parties in his bedroom where several young ladies must join him for sex. Though they show their devotion when he's looking, they do their best to stay under the radar, so they're not elected.

      I wonder if actors in Erotic movies are abused. I heard about the extreme misfortunes of Kim Bassinger. She came out of making"9 1/2 Weeks" feeling like a rape victim. She verbally agreed to act in "Boxing Helena", then backed out when she discovered the gruesome plot. She was sued big time, even though she hadn't signed anything. (By the way, the movie bombed.)

      I haven't read anything negative about Dakota Johnson in "Fifty Shades of Grey". Though much was inaccurate in the characterization and plot line, I thought the movie was actually better than the book. Dakota Johnson still has two more movies to make in the series. She may be waiting until she collects her money to say anything, but if working conditions were that disgusting, surely the money wouldn't be worth it???

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      savvydating 2 months ago

      Pornography is found in adult movies, explicit magazines and violent video games. It is big business, which has become even wealthier by featuring more and more violence against women. Rape scenes are all the rage these days.

      Women who star in these films have constant issues with STD's, drug addiction and mental illness. They sign contracts, without knowing what they are getting into. For example, a producer might introduce a scene in which the actress is cut with a knife. It's a dangerous business.

      Confession magazine was fairly benign back in the day. Nowadays, I worry that their covers feature young girls who look a little too "sexy."

      As for "reading" Playboy magazine with a boyfriend, I do not recommend it. These guys supposedly appreciate the articles, but I dare say, they can find useful information in other places, which do not feature busty, naked women.

      If I walked into a man's house and he had a Playboy magazine on the coffee table, I would walk right out. I can't abide a man who makes excuses for chauvinistic or stupid behavior. Yoleen, your experiences with men have not been all that good. It probably had to do with the violent atmosphere you grew up in. My point? It is harmful to our society to cheapen the sex act by desensitizing men to violence. Women who defend porn are extremely naive about the seedy world of big business pornography. They have no idea how badly these women are treated, many of whom come from abusive backgrounds and who have no self esteem to speak of.

    • Say Yes To Life profile image

      Yoleen Lucas 2 months ago from Big Island of Hawaii

      When discussing pornography, people usually refer to movies made for men. They almost never mention confession magazine stories written for women. I used to read confession magazines; they did me no harm. As for girlie magazines, I personally have no problem with Playboy. I used to read it with one of my boyfriends.

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      savvydating 2 months ago

      Hi, Say Yes. Just scroll up to Robert Seymour and you will find the link. It's truly interesting. Thanks for asking.;)

    • Say Yes To Life 2 months ago

      SavvyDating - where's the link?

    • savvydating profile image
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      savvydating 2 months ago

      leonard....My article is not about porn. I do not approve of porn under any circumstances. I have already provided a link regarding what science has to say about this issue. Wives are not in favor of porn---even those who say they are. Deep down, they hate that crap, even if they are too messed up to say so. Read the link to discover what porn addiction does to the brain. It ain't pretty.

    • leonard 2 months ago

      Wow! What a collection of comments! I guess that I had the impression that married guys were all over hidden porn because of all the times they got "turned down" by wives they loved dearly, and had to keep the peace by shutting up about it and not making it an issue.It would seem to me that wives would be in favor of pornography for their husbands for that reason.

    • savvydating profile image
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      savvydating 2 months ago

      Jango7, the ultimate male gatherer. To be fair, gatherers appear in many forms and disguises.

      J. is just more obvious than some.

    • Jango7 3 months ago

      Strong, independent, emotionally aware, motivated, intelligent men desire a partner who SERVES. Yes... a woman must serve her man. If a woman has a voice, conviction and self-respect then submitting and putting her partner before herself (at times) is simple human compassion and intimacy. This awakens a deep male/primal sense of commitment and desire to provide and appreciate his woman. But today the thought of a woman serving a man is blasphemy. As far as GOOD men go: if you appreciate him, listen to his rants, take initiative to show affection, follow his leadership, and provide an abundance of sex; an alpha-males brain activates a deep desire to provide emotional support and understanding as best as possible. Men want to love show true intimacy but as a woman it is occasionally YOUR JOB to tame his internal animality through sex and obedience. This cracks away at our hard shell and makes us willingly vulnerable to be both your strong steady man and your intimate best friend. Communicate with one another, no games. He won't always be perfect. He needs to work everyday at being a better man; just as you need to work everyday at being a better WOMAN. Strong men will CHOOSE feminine females if they ever come a cross one.

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      savvydating 3 months ago

      Well Batphink..... All I can tell you is that I am a lady, but you are no gentleman.

    • Batphink Reynolds 3 months ago

      That's right do what you modern women make a past time of doing blaming men for all your shortcomings.You wanted equality you got it in fact more if the truth be known.I've seen more women with top ranked jobs in my last few years than ever and IF they earned it by not sleeping around then good for them.

      However women have become men in dresses or pants more often,so now days there are so FEW ladies.If you have to ask what that means then you are NOT a lady,real men WANT ladies,Ive not met one since I started dating years back.Why do I think she's out there....?Am I deluded?

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      savvydating 3 months ago

      Thank you for commenting, Suzanne. I appreciate everything you have to say. I think that pre-nups are a good idea for anyone who is wealthy enough to have to think about such things. As for giving up, I agree that there is no reason to do so. As they say, knowledge is wisdom. The more we understand, the less time we waste on men or women who are not worthwhile. In my experience, they always give themselves away pretty early in the game. Consequently, we don't have to have our hearts broken all of the time. That I can say with full confidence!

    • Suzanne Day profile image

      Suzanne Day 3 months ago from Melbourne, Victoria, Australia

      Hi,

      This hub has been very interesting to read!

      As a youngster, I was never taught anything about how to go about dating, relationships, marriage etc. So I've had to learn the hard way by prettymuch making every mistake you can make.

      I completely understand most of the men commenting on here, because I feel exactly the same way towards the opposite sex on many occasions. Many of them can be completely unrealistic, narcissistic, entitled manchildren who are total users and even some of the most horrible ones think they are the best thing on the planet, treating women like vaginal ATMs and breaking hearts without giving it a second thought.

      I'm here to tell the commenting men that since I have my own assets, I'd look to have him sign a pre-nup or nup and I'm happy to do one too. That way, I wouldn't be scared of an ex taking my hard earned and putting me in poverty etc.

      As for being hurt by gatherers, they abound and breed like rabbits in our very disturbing society, but at some point you say to yourself, shall I keep going or shall I give up on the opposite sex? If you've had nothing but bad experiences, then of course, giving up looks like a logical conclusion - but since you've had to have bad experiences in the first place, the hope is still within and it feels quite sad and disappointing to have to deny ourselves what we want.

      The only real reason you need to spend time considering giving up is because you don't want to. Otherwise you would have just done it already, naturally, without stressing.

      The trick is, I think, to realise that doing the same thing over and over will NOT yield a different result. You have patterns in who you are choosing and how you play it etc and these patterns interact with the predictable patterns of the typical other you keep choosing and so on. Shake it up. Ask yourself what would make you feel safe with the opposite sex so you could open yourself to a relationship (eg prenup, nup - legally conditional wedding, not having children, locking away money into super, only dating financially secure women and so on - I've only mentioned financial stuff here, but there's other points to consider). These safety boundaries become your deal breakers in future.

      I haven't given up hope yet, because I don't want to and feel very sad if I think I won't have a relationship ever again. My previous relationships have almost forced everyone around me to convince me to take that logical conclusion and stop doing it as they think the price is too high for me, but to do so would be denying myself what I truly desire and would mean giving up on one of my dreams (and I've already given up on a bunch of others - which were far easier to let go of).

      I still think I'm learning...and definitely trying something new is a good idea, as well as controlling what makes you feel safe to try again. Just make sure the safety boundaries are pleasantly communicated to people a little way in without making it into a hammer punch on the first date (seen people make THAT mistake before!)

      Best of luck to all.

    • savvydating profile image
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      savvydating 3 months ago

      Hello Lucien....Feminism and the 60's sexual revolution may be intertwined, but they are not exactly the same. Feminism asks for equal pay and opportunity, which is positive. Radical feminism, which I do not condone, asks for the dismantling of the family. Given the rise of poverty among single women and the confusion of males who have no fathers, you can see where that idea has gotten us. Pretty much, nowhere.

      The Sexual Revolution made sex more permissive for women, particularly with the advent of The Pill. Where men get tripped up is in forgetting that they (men) have always had the permission to be sexual with whomever they please whereas women had not. Consequently, there seems to be a huge resentment toward women for initiating this change, but at the same time, men like having sex with women without having to pay a prostitute or go over to the "other side of town." It takes two to tango, so men need to take as much responsibility as women for the negative results of sexual permissiveness. That being said, only women can effect this change. Men will not do it. They are not wired to reject easy sex. Just saying. ;)

    • Jeremiah 3 months ago

      GLAD I'M SINGLE! lol

    • Lucien Cross 3 months ago

      Interesting opinion piece.

      Something stuck out to me though...

      We had a sexual revolution in a dimorphic species where the social construct between men and women was cast aside.

      Women stated their intentions/sentiments via feminism; fair enough.

      Without getting into historic and ongoing effects of the ideology and it's impact on society, one thing is patently clear and that is

      The sexual revolution for women may be over but it hasn't happened yet for men.

      So perhaps men and women need to be honest, brutally honest, about what they want (if anything) and deliberately consider what the other party has to say.

      Crazy... I know.

      the men NOW... These gatherers, are (at least 60% of them) the cultural byproduct of feminism's impact on society. This is good because it shows men and women are capable of change if that's what they want.

      Either way... Bed. Made. Lie. Or make a new bed.

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      savvydating 3 months ago

      Robert Seymour...Here is a valuable site that may give you some clarity.

      http://fightthenewdrug.org/get-the-facts/

    • savvydating profile image
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      savvydating 3 months ago

      Robert...It is not okay to give up. You are in your 30's. Even if you were 70, you should find more enjoyment in life. I sense a spirit that is in deep distress. You can feel better, but you will have to find a very good psychologist.

      Your libido has diminished because of porn. Studies have shown that excessive porn desensitizes men by affecting the brain quite negatively.

      This may also explain why you seem to believe that only women who look like models are good enough for you. The porn gives men unrealistic expectations about what women should look like as opposed to what a healthy relationship looks like. It is time for you to take greater responsibility for your failed relationships. There is no tranquility in giving up. Things only get worse. If you are suicidal, I beg you to get help. Please find a good doctor. If you would like for me to find some good studies on porn written by reputable doctors, I will be happy to do that for you.

    • Robert Seymour 3 months ago

      Most women are not worth this kind of effort. I've dated one woman who was worth this kind of effort and she was a model with a very feminine personality. When she undressed, it was just like in a Hollywood movie. But I realize I can't always date, or even marry once, women like that.

      That being the case, sex with most women doesn't justify that serious effort. Moreover, it's not fair to expect major effort from men. With rights, come responsibility. Your desire for effort from men comes from the fact that your eggs are scarce relative to sperm. Your eggs have to be worthy of the mate you choose. But the social parameters of that equation are gone. You're not kept women anymore and you're not first baby machines anymore. You have the opportunity for independence. With that independence, you have to do some of the man's work. You have to earn some of the money and do some of the pursuing. And you have to do more than that. Your new found equality makes you less attractive to men. Your job means less time spent on your beauty and a less feminine appearance. It means that you probably put on weight. Your social independence means more past boyfriends and less chasteness. These require compensating effort on your part as well.

      The older I get, the less I think women. Also, the happier I am to have my libido diminish. I'm in my mid-30s and should be considering marriage. I'm not. I'm only pursuing a good career to placate my family who is waiting for kids that never come. I play high-level sport because being in good shape makes life more bearable. Sure, my highest value in life is love, but I have no compunctions about attaining it in this society. I'll keep turning most women down politely, while dating no one serious, watching porn to satisfy what sexual desires I do have, or the odd fling, and wait to die. Women just aren't worth it in this society. There is a pleasant tranquility in giving up.

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      savvydating 3 months ago

      Hello Honest Truth....It sounds like your divorce through you for a loop. I am sorry things didn't work out. Needless to say, it is not appropriate to paint women with such a broad brush and in such a negative light. The world is full of good people and bad people, of both sexes. If you want love in your life you will have to become a more positive person. You would do well to let go of the cynicism sooner rather than later; it is not doing you any favors. You see, it is possible to find happiness---even in this day and age. Right now, your responsibility is to work on yourself. I wish you well.

    • The God's Honest Truth 3 months ago

      Well i really believe that women should be to Blame why so many of us Good men that are still Single these days since we really have No Reason at all to Blame ourselves. Since it is a Totally Different Time that we live in now really complicates things for many of us Good men that had really Hoped to meet a Good woman to settle down with since Most of the women of today are Nothing at all like the women of the Past were that really made it happen back then. Today many women that have a Career now have become so very high maintenance, independent, selfish, spoiled, greedy, picky, and very money hungry since they will Only want the Best of all and will Never settle for Less. Most women unfortunately want a man with Mega Bucks now which is very sad how the women have Changed since they really want men to keep spending Money on them every chance they get. And many women that have a Career today are more Committed to their jobs instead of their families which has caused many Divorces already do to their Greed And Selfishness since many of these women have also Cheated as well. I had it happen to me which i was a very Good husband that was always Faithful to my wife to the very end which i Loved her very much and very Committed to her as well which i always wanted children too which Never happened. Now Single And Alone again for me makes me very Sad when i see so many others that were very Blessed to be married with their families. Wish that i had been born many years sooner when the Good old fashioned women were around which it Definitely Would've been much easier finding Love in those days the way our family members had it. I know friends of mine that are going through the same thing today as well. Peace.

    • savvydating profile image
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      savvydating 3 months ago

      Thank you for commenting, oTuna. Actually, I do not recommend that women be passive. I've written about this matter in other hubs. I do agree that it is easier for the man if the woman pursues him, but why any woman would even want a man who is too lazy or cowardly to pursue a woman is beyond me. I call them "lazy hunters." For them, it's "easy come, easy go" which is why I tell women to avoid them like the plague.

      In the end, woman who chase after men are always dissatisfied, and (as I've written) is the main reason why women are confused and frustrated about dating. With the male, if a woman chases him, he's going to think, "Sure, why not. If I don't like her, I will still get easy sex." The woman, on the other hand, is thinking that if he dates her, he must like her---which is the reason she dates him. But men do not necessarily have any such feelings in 95 to 99% of cases. He doesn't have to like her a lot to date her.

      On the other hand, if the man has to do the work of pursuing the woman, it usually means he is actually interested in her beyond what she can give him sexually. True, the dating paradigm may have shifted, but until women get a clue, it will never shift back. On the other hand, a smart woman doesn't have to wait for paradigms to change. She works within her own parameters, and she isn't lonely.

    • oTuna 3 months ago

      Savvydating, interesting insight into the female side of the dating world. However the old ways of placing the sole responsibility of courting on male shoulders isn't exactly romantically egalitarian either. Most people enjoy being chased, not just women. Its basically free emotional validation with no risk of being rejected and with little or no personal financial cost, and it puts the pursued person in a superior position where they can end the relationship on their terms if they wanted to. Its the safest and most effortless way to date.

      Here is the rub, when a woman is being chased it can end with either a stable and fulfilling relationship, or it can end with a guy getting what he was after and the woman feeling used and not getting what she needed from the encounter. A win and a loss.

      When a guy is being chased it can end with him either being in a stable and fulfilling relationship, or a brief but passionate sexual conquest. Its a win/win scenario.

      In this day and age, it should be no surprise that a lot of men have figured this out and opt to not pursue. Why? Because given the current climate between the sexes, its the most rational way for men to date. It puts him in a context that makes it difficult to paint him as a potential rapist or sex offender, his sexual needs are served, its easy on the pocket book, and he doesn't have to deal with rejection. On top of that if he rejects marriage and children, he can live a very comfortable life with virtually no commitment or legal risk.

      Is this a good thing? I don't think so. The dating scene today is lopsided and chaotic, full of men and women who just want to find someone they can get along with and live as naturally together as men and women are supposed to, without all the gender politics. But it would take a tremendous amount of change to reverse these trends.

      I don't know how wise it would be to suggest that your female readers stay passive in today's dating world, especially if they are looking for a traditionally masculine man. In other words, the gatherers are after a diminishing resource and they have a lot of competition they need to deal with.

      Ladies, I would suggest that if you are in a bit of a rut in your love life, try being a bit more proactive and make your own luck instead of waiting for the perfect guy to land in your lap. I don't think most women are wired to comfortably pursue men the way that men pursue women. But I really would be interested in seeing women develop their own brand of pick-up styles and techniques, tailored to make them as big of a blip as possible on the radars of their desired suitors.

      As an egalitarian I think its ideal that men and women should meet each other half-way in all things as a start, and then slowly compromise into something that fulfills the needs of couple's shared lifestyle. I think we can all agree that finding a mate has gradually gotten far more difficult than it needs to be.

    • savvydating profile image
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      savvydating 3 months ago

      Thank you for the Motherlode compliment, Smiling Dave. I am glad I can help. My thoughts are that plenty of women will stick around even if you seem only 75% invested. Sometimes less. I am not one of those women, but that's just me.

      Your only job is to learn to be a little bit more emotive. Practice makes perfect. But don't over-do it or you will come off as fake or "trying too hard." As long as you let her know that you really enjoy her company, you should be fine. If you find she is pulling away because you have clammed up, just send her a cute email or text. You could keep it short and sweet: "Good morning, beautiful. I woke up with you on my mind." That's all you have to do to reassure her that you do care and that you can emote. It sounds very simplistic, but doing these tiny things to let her know that you like her can work wonders. When the time comes, you'll do well. It sounds like you are learning all that you can from various sources---and I am always here if you need me.

    • Smiling Dave 3 months ago

      Dear Savvy,

      I feel as though I'm on the cusp of an epiphany. Past failures now seem like stepping stones to lead me on a path of a healthy relationship of the woman of my dreams. The dating gurus, that have shaped me towards my goal of a healthy fulfilling relationship have all been men. That was good, but I was still missing a part of the puzzle and decided to read women dating gurus that were written for women to gain some insight. With you I hit the motherload. There are concepts and information in your other writings that have given me insights that should serve me well. It is interesting for example, how many men reacted to the essay (or hub) written above. Men are not the target audience, it's written for a type of women. Yet, it sparked emotions in men that were quite strong. Nothing takes place of a good women. You can do without, but masculine energy is dead energy. To explain myself, right now, I am 100% self reliant, I get the job done. Yet here I am, trying to figure a way to bring a women into my life, and it be good. There's more to life than getting the job done, but masculine energy is all about getting the job accomplished.

      Currently I have taken a Sabbatical from romantic pursuit of women until I have myself 100% ready to bring a woman into my life. The progress has been good, probably need about 3 more months before it's time.

      Your essays are about women looking for men that are capable of the making the women feel safe and secure. Women have antenna, radar, instincts, that are in full force in assessing a mans intention. You are telling women to use their gift. It only makes sense because a man can be dangerous. Women can feel a man's intention if they allow their natural abilities to take over. If the women's instincts tell her to run, she runs. In my case, my lack of emoting, gives me a scary vibe to the women, she pulls back because she is unsure, then I clam up even more, which makes me seem even scarier, which makes her really pull back and the cycle continues. Even though I may really be a great catch, if the women doesn't think I'm 100 % invested in her, if she doesn't feel like I'm invested in her, it's over.

      Comments?

      Smiling Dave

    • savvydating profile image
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      savvydating 4 months ago

      Hi Dave....I do not think you are emotionally unavailable at all. Logic-driven people may come across that way but that does not mean that is who they are inside. In fact, you are romantic or you wouldn't even bother trying. Personally, I think that "Michelle" was the wrong girl for you and I am glad the relationship is over---for your sake. In fact, I find that analytical types are actually very stable and loyal. Those are highly desirable traits in a man. That being said, my experiences with the logic driven guy have been frustrating at times. I tend to be analytical but passionate at the same time. (Bet you didn't know that was possible) but as a woman, my emotional side really tends to take over in relationships. My point is that I have experience in this matter.

      So.....the solution is to be with a woman who is at least a little more understanding of your nature. She must give a little and concede that not all things are wine and roses. Your part is to let her know that you tend to be "analytical" (or whichever word you prefer to use), but that does not mean that you do not have strong feelings. Then you have to do little things, like sending her funny emails once in a while (it is best to use a salutation and a signature). Another easy way to get a woman's attention is to call her "beautiful" or gorgeous." Women love that. In other words, if you can't wrap your mind around the word romantic, then substitute it with the word "sexy." Just be sexy in a respectful way, If you are not sure what that means, get back to me. Good luck, sweet (smiling) Dave

    • Smiling Dave 4 months ago

      My reply....first let me rephrase the question as such,; why do I think romance is not my strong point. My answer is that I am too logic-driven, and come across flat emotionally. An example would be my ex-girlfriends statement that I "live inside my head". Michelle was always telling me my romantic abilities were sub-par.

      A possible second answer to the problem of my romantic prowess may be that I am attracted to and/or attracting the type of women that are not a proper fit. Michelle liked to drink wine,

      I don't drink (don't like it), I would work all day, go over to her house and she would want to be taken out. If I didn't, I wasn't romantic, and we all know how that plays out in the bedroom. Eventually the relationship of a year and a half died.

      I believe you used the word 'romantic' five times in the above article. It's an artsy word to my scientific mind, however it's a concept that is important for a man to understand if he is going to be with a women. I'm not dating a man, so logic dictates I improve my awareness, of what a women wants and needs. Sure, I've been burned by women, but they are the only game in town as far as I'm concerned. So....Savvy what do you think...am I emotionally unavailable ....or....attracting/going after women who aren't a good fit.

      Smiling Dave

    • savvydating profile image
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      savvydating 4 months ago

      Hello Equality....Thanks for reading. No, I do not think it is okay for women to be gatherers. That's pretty much what the article is about. (Are you sure you read it? Lol)

      The reason I say so is because it doesn't work. Once all the dust settles, women still want a man who can who can take charge. If she is the one who always has to initiate everything, keep the family safe, pay all the bills, she will lose respect for the man.

      However, the smart woman can and should do just enough to make the man want to pursue her. She does this by being all woman. Feminine but strong.

      As for the man, he doesn't have to jump through hoops or stand on his head. But he does need to initiate the process and be consistent. That's all I've got for now. ;)

    • Understanding Equality 4 months ago

      Hello,

      I am a man, have read all your article and find it very interesting. However it bothers me that it is written from point of view that nearly only considers the interests of the women. From a man's perspective today's dating scene is also very complicated. It is sometimes very hard to draw the line between pursuing a woman, being an ass who just won't give up and harassing a women. [btw I absolutely agree that to reach equal rights and social status between both sex's women do not have to become men] Additionally as you pointed out it is very easy to become passive because of the hostile reactions that come with pursuing women today (in a purely gentlemanly way) who do not want to be pursued. However again this is true for both sex's. So I would like to know what your comments may be on this as well as wether you think it more acceptable for women to be gatherers than for men to be gatherers in today's world. I look forward to seeing your answer. Thanks

    • savvydating profile image
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      savvydating 4 months ago

      Lol. Well, orbits aside. I'll see what I can come up with, Dave. Tell me. What do you think you are doing wrong? Do you have a quick example?

    • SmilingDave 4 months ago

      A caring additude. Ok, I can accept that. Could you say that a man revolving around a woman makes them feel safe and secure, so that they can go more into their feminine nature?

      Using the planets, sun, earth, moon, (circular orbit) Haley's Comet (elliptical orbit), can you pick an example, write a story, that demonstrates, describes, the dynamics of the of the feminine psychology, and her need to feel that someone is in orbit around her?

      My goal is to improve my romantic abilities. Romance is a perception of being cared about.

      As a man I need to learn how to project caring, so that it is perceived as romance. This has been a weak point in my past.

      Thank you for your help.

      SmilingDave

    • savvydating profile image
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      savvydating 4 months ago

      Hello Smiling Dave.....Romance is not an obligation, as in feeling the pressure to buy expensive roses on Valentine's Day. Rather, romance is doing nice things for someone you love simply because you care enough to take the time. For example, if your girlfriend or wife isn't feeling well due to minor cold symptoms, but decides to go to work anyway, a romantic gesture would be to stop by Whole Foods to pick up some fresh chicken soup and to deliver it to her office in person in time for lunch. That is romantic. It's also a good way to make her colleagues jealous. Lol.

      Great question. I should write a hub about it. ;))

    • SmilingDave 4 months ago

      Can you define romance? It seems to be nebulous. An elusive moving target. Do tell more.

    • savvydating profile image
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      savvydating 5 months ago

      I do not think that radical feminism has been helpful. On the other hand, I also think it is a shame when a man lets the woman take care of him financially---to the point where he doesn't have to work or left a finger around the house.

    • Freethought 5 months ago

      Men have not lost the abillity,feminism and the moderne woman killed it.

    • savvydating profile image
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      savvydating 7 months ago

      Thank you, Word55. The scriptures are indeed meant to guide men and women toward wisdom and peace.

    • word55 profile image

      Word 7 months ago from Chicago

      God created woman for man. Both, men and women have made the mistake of choosing to live outside of the boundaries that God ordained for man and woman to coexist. Without the respect for God and perhaps, the purpose that Jesus served for humanity, we as a people are bound to be doomed for destruction. We must go back to Eden and fix what was wronged. We must believe in the fact that God made all humanity and therefore, we owe it to live according to the Word of God. It is that simple. People would be more loving, happier and living longer. Unfortunately, many people date, are in relationships (long and short term) and marry for the wrong reasons. If such people knew how bad things could get then they would not make such bad choices. The time to choose God’s way of life is now and not when things get dire bad. Every man and woman has the purpose to love the other as well as the purpose to serve God so that things will work out for the Good. Read Romans 8:28.

    • savvydating profile image
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      savvydating 7 months ago

      That's a sad story, Unhappy guu. I can understand why you are unhappy. I doubt that you would be living in a box under the freeway had you gotten out sooner, but at this juncture, I understand somewhat why you have made the choice to stay. I wish you could find a way out and away from her. That is no way to live.

    • Unhappy guu 7 months ago

      I'm 71 and married 50 years' which some say is an accomplishment but I disagree. I'm neither a hunter or a gather I really have no interest in my wife. I don't want a divorce because I would get killed with support payments and end up living in a box under some freeway underpass. My wife chose to run our marriage and I had no input ever. I wasn't happy about it and told her how l felt now that was a mistake. She considered me just another person in the house like a nobody. I then moved to our basement where I still live, she told me she wanted kids and I told her she should find someone else I'm a nobody. So I just kicked back and she did her thing so I wasn't a hunter gatherer nor a provider. If I had to do over i would never get involved with a women again. They are not worth the time and effort.

    • savvydating profile image
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      savvydating 7 months ago

      I'm sorry you were harassed like that. I am familiar with some of the issues that many (but not all) black women face when it comes to dating and marriage. I am happy to hear that you are choosing to respect your feelings and to rise above. Steve Harvey is trying to help women. He is especially familiar with the problems that black women face. (I was not clear from your message if you are a man or a woman, but in either case, we need to develop our self-respect, and kudos to you for doing that.)

    • Juju 7 months ago

      To night I was harassed in a club by a group of men and women because I was not interested in one of them. Men are taught by other women that women who are single are lacking something. They are a incomplete person. Single men are complete people and that is one of the reason they are allowed to enjoy being single but women are unhappy and lonely and incomplete when they are single. Women are desperate to fix this incompleteness by chasing me or being grateful for the attention of any man who shows up. The man I rejected knew I was not interested as we have talked before. He then began laughing and insisting I talk to every unattractive man who looked my way. THIS was with a group of women. The reason so many black women are single mothers is we have a culture that insist black women are not happy unless they have a man and if that mean sharing a man or rotating men then you do what you happen. Look at Steve Harvey.

    • savvydating profile image
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      savvydating 9 months ago

      Hello Chris....Your comment was more than twice the size of this article, so I could not print it. The following are a few of your snippets:

      "As a sidenote, in the rare instances where the woman does objectively acknowledge her own faults with their relationship's given dynamic in regard to the masculinity/femininity balance, it's usually not until the male is pulling away as an expression of a desire to end the relationship, in which case any assessment and adjustment on her part isn't really for HIS benefit so much as a last ditch, "panic mode" effort placate him into staying in a relationship that's of benefit to her... a point that men often pick up on, making her reaction one of "too little, too late".

      "All that said, many men are coming to the only possible logical conclusion concerning this imbalance-- that the only way for him to not lose (and end up completely emotionally, psychologically, and physically exhausted, along with potentially financially drained) is to not play-- i.e. eschewing marriage/children…. only engaging in short-term or hook-up relations, etc. while leaving women to their own devices."

      "Instead of telling her in a generic sense to "know their own value" and to not diminish it for the sake of a mate, it really should be framed with a qualifying statement that she MUST have a realistic understanding of what that value actually is before she can determine whether or not a potential mate is actually on her level…."

      "No one wants to be the consolation prize, and he definitely doesn't just want to be her "provider" (i.e. sacrificial utility), while she threw her best away on someone else in her prime. He often doesn't have to settle either, as men tend to hit their prime in their 30's (when they start hitting their professional stride), which often results in them being able to pair off with women 5-10 years younger for casual flings, leaving the 30-YO women with far fewer options."

      (Chris's words, NOT mine.)

    • savvydating profile image
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      savvydating 10 months ago

      Fierce, this article is meant to help women recognize those men who have no interest in pursuing a committed relationship. I have met many good men, which is why I am a happy woman---and I would like the same for other women.

    • FiercePheonix 10 months ago

      Wow, this article is so condescending. It is clearly an attempt to shame men back into line, as though that hasn't been tried before. If women are concerned about the amount of men who aren't pursuing women anymore, perhaps this is a good moment to stop and reflect on what is happening.

      Savvy, have you given any thought to the idea that maybe in order for men to be interested in pursuing women, the end reward has to be worth the risk involved? In relationships and even in general society we have moved to a point were the emphasis is always placed on what women want or expect and no one seems to be interested in asking what men want, or what men can expect. I know this is going to be shocking, but men have feelings too. Yet somehow we are expected to face being turned down again and again just because women don't want to have to do it? Whether a man is a confident go-getter, or a misogynist pig creeper depends entirely on how the woman feels about the guy in question. Divorce is through the roof and consent can be revoked after the fact. Maybe men see this invisible obstacle course and say 'screw it, I have better things to do.' And what is really interesting is men who say that seem to accrue many of the things that women are looking for in a man.

      For men relationships are basically an invisible obstacle course of hoops to jump through in which men are just expected to know where all the hoops are without any prompting and there is no margin for error. And at least with other things in life, if I put work into it, I will be building something. With relationships it is more likely than not that all my effort will yield is an empty bucket made of nothing. This situation is not fulfilling, and when men realize that, they stop pursuing and the seek fulfillment elsewhere, plain and simple

      Savvy I have to say, I think maybe you have been a little spoiled in your life. You and other women have had so much time having men falling over themselves to do things for you that now that the golden goose isn't laying eggs, you are angry. You don't care what men face in the dating scene nor you do you care if we are taken advantage of by other women. In fact when this happens women everywhere seem to look for a reason to blame the man. Monogamy is a joke. Do you have any idea how many are still prospecting potential mates while in a relationship and jump ship the very second something better comes along? And the only thing that men are told to bolster their confidence is that, no really, if you look through the slurry long enough you really will find a good one. I'm pretty sure that if Moses' followers were told that promised land always just over the next horizon they would have buried him in the sand.

      I know this probably sound somewhat harsh, but the shaming tactics have got to stop, it is part of what is ruining relationships.

    • savvydating profile image
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      savvydating 11 months ago

      Hello Northern Guy....Your comment was too long to post, but I saved this section for anyone to review if they wish:

      "I stopped looking for dates online, and changed my profile from a well thought out description of who I was to "Meh, stopped looking for me. Message me if you want. Whatever." Strange, but now women who I have been indifferent to seem to be texting me and messaging me. My first instinct is to show appreciation, strike up conversation and be available. But I hold back. I don't text back right away, if at all. Or I do what they do... drop out of conversations suddenly (even rudely) and show up days later with a "hey sup?". I am really really trying hard to understand what women *really* want and respond to these days, and I hate to say it but it really needs to be said: it's true. If you treat women "old school" with attentiveness, respect and niceties, you're doomed."

      I don't agree you're doomed. There is something to be said for being "somewhat reserved" in the beginning, but acting like a jerk only works for women who don't have their head on straight. I know good women exist. I meet them every single day.

    • savvydating profile image
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      savvydating 11 months ago

      Usagima, It seems to me that you are doing everything right. Just know that with women there is a difference between realizing one's worth, because she is actually an authentic woman, and feeling entitled for no particular reason at all.

      If you are authentic, then hold her to the same high standards.

      I'm glad you chimed in. I find your comment refreshing!

    • Usagima 11 months ago

      Hi, I thought I'd offer a counterpoint to some of the posts. I am a guy in that post divorce wasteland where it's easy to get bitter and hateful. I liked being married and still like being a father, the sense of purpose, feeling like we're part of a unit and so on. I'm paying spousal and child support and to be honest the settlement is ok if not great. So many friends have shared the anecdotal story of the guy that got totally fleeced and even one of my work colleagues is living that. Yet still I like the company of women and even now at some point I'd like a longer term relationship (once the dust has settled), so I'm exploring dating and kind of practising how to be single and talk to/be with unattached women. Somewhere along the way it seems I passed from being Joe average to 'a good catch', can't say why beyond I have a good job, I try not to be reckless with people's hearts and I like to be my authentic self. I am not used to getting the attention I am experiencing and there seems to be a strong sense of 'must find a good man' 'I deserve a good man' & 'I expect there to be a choice of them available to me when I'm ready', from the women I meet. Despite stating where I was and a desire to move slow one woman escalated into a relationship really quickly and then started berating me for not 'being ready'. Yes it takes two to tango and I think I was somewhat unrealistic in my expectations. I left, too much drama, and no I'm not going to be berated into commitment. Now I'm sat on my heels wondering how to navigate in this new order. Gathering sounds tempting, make them do the work after the slow drip drip of 'not good enough' that ended in divorce. I suspect I will just withdraw and steer a course away from the fed up & dis enchanted. Honestly, I am not playing part of a game anymore. If we can meet on neutral territory outside of the BS; then maybe I'll ask the girl out, treat her right, she will

      do the same to me and we'll have a great time for however long that lasts.

    • savvydating profile image
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      savvydating 11 months ago

      Hello seyhan. Thank you for commenting. You are correct in saying that many men here have proved my point about "gatherers." Unfortunately, I have had to delete about a third of the comments because they were so disrespectful.

      Thete are some "bad" women out there, but most of us just want to be treated with respect. Most people want that---no matter their gender.

      Frankly, our society has become used to instant gratification. In relationships, real life doesn't work that way.

      Thank you for commenting. You know the truth---that personal responsibility matters! I admire your having spoken up.

    • seyhan 11 months ago

      Thanks savvydating, your writing is amazing but also your points are very rational. I printed one out to remind my self as a frustrated 37 yr old single woman.

      I have couple of things to say to the guys who post here.. it is interesting to read what they have to say... Ironic that what most guys prove your points in the article. We now know that most men who took their time to read then to write comment are 'gatherers'.. It is not really men blamed as they put it across, I am sick of coming across articles, even hearing comments from both men and women about failed dating attempts that totally blame women. If you google, browse internet, majority of the articles are 'how to get a man... blah blah steps', 'how to make him love you..' 'how to make him think you..'.. This is so sad and signs of crisis in the whole world. It is degrading to women, 'having a man committing to us' has become a CV skill.. in reality, a man will commit not because women did this, that to him.. but it happens because of him, out of his integrity, character, personal development, and his becoming an adult, of course, when he meets a woman who reciprocates and he is attracted to her. But nowadays, even many women tell you how to manipulate yourself to get a guy like you, so many other variations..

      More importantly, I have a lot of experience of that 'friend zone' both ways.. I have friended men who were attracted to me many times in the past, but guys, be honest with yourselves, even if it hurts you, a woman does not actually put a guy in the friend zone because he is nice, attentive, soft, not a player etc. etc.. quite the opposite, personally, I feel attracted to men who put effort for seeing me, who don't just ask sex, who seem to be thoughtful, generous (I always reciprocate, but the thought of generosity for both genders is attractive). I friend zone them because I am NOT attracted to them since the time I meet them. I know very well that it will never change, they just don't appeal to me to be more than a friend. And I make this clear with them in all the sense, physical and emotional and with words I tell them. What happened is most of these friends became close friends but slowly, I saw that they would become very critical of me, making unfair or a bit cruel remarks to me, just because I realised they feel rejected, especially if they heard I was starting to date someone. To my sadness, these were guys I truly cared and valued and tried to be a good friend, but I realised despite they don't show it and accept my terms, even for more than a year, they do still hope or expect me to love them or to sleep couple of times with them, not sure.. So, I realised that despite liking male company without romance even as I was so close to my own brother growing up and my personality, I get along with me, compared to women, their ego is so so big that a rejection get never forgotten and they really hurt me for that eventually..

      So, my point is, don't deceive yourselves... face it... when a woman friends you, it is not "because you were nice to her, wooed and companied her or you were honest with her" it is because there has been NEVER an attraction from them to you. Attraction is extremely important for most women, we can't just fool around couple of months even if he is a fine looking guy and these guys looked fine really.

      So, keep good attitudes, it is like magic you will see. Many of us are good women in many dimensions, all we need is a man who is really decent, honest, nice, and willing to gradually commit to us. We are looking for company, intimacy, equality.. without stripping him off his finances or blah blah.. These are excuses, I am sorry. You need to face yourselves. Otherwise, not only women are lonely, single and unhappy at this aspect (I am not unhappy at other aspects of my life) but also I believe that crisis of mating in all over the world almost has a cost on you as well. (in the countries with reasonable amount of development and freedom) I really don't believe you can just be happy playing the game, getting the girl into bed, then either getting lost next day or next month or when things eventually get tough in a year.. I think this is tiring, confusing, hard to play especially when people get older.. I cannot believe this type of life is a happy place for you either.

    • intimateasking profile image

      intimateasking 12 months ago

      I personally see things a little differently. I think it's a matter of cultural differences in what women like in men combined with the recent sexual liberation women now have. Women don't appreciate now what they appreciated then. What was considered romantic and sweet then now gets a guy in the soft to eager to please friend Zone. Men aren't stupid. They do what going to get them laid not what's going to get a woman's heart. There use to be a time when you couldn't get one without the other. Since that has changed, so has the other

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      savvydating 15 months ago

      Virgo6, I believe a hint of invitation is a good thing. A smile is a hint. I find it to be simple, but effective---and it works both ways. I also believe that both men and women are free to “play the field,” that is, until a couple reaches the point where they both want a monogamous relationship. What I am trying to convey to women is that if she is looking for a committed relationship, there are ways to discover whether he really cares. That being said, there are women who always pursue the man or make it so easy for him to have her---she really loses all sense of who cares about her and who doesn’t. And frankly, so does he. He becomes desensitized to what it means to commit and care for a woman and any children who may come as a result of their union. Consequently, he becomes a gatherer and never a giver.

      Thanks for stopping by.

    • virgo6 15 months ago

      Speaking for 'ordinary" men we are more than happy to pursue if "there is a hint of invitation". I repeat "a hint of invitation". If there isn't then what's the point. Similarly, if the woman we are interested is giving us the runaround (e.g receiving 5 calls from us before, if we are so lucky, initiating one herself) then it is reasonable to assume that she lacks interest or sees us as "friendzone" material only. Life is busy enough with job, health, elderly relatives etc worries for men to have the added burden of getting wound up over a girl who is ultimately not interested. Furthermore, in a dating context if a woman plays the field of suitable suitors it is somehow considered her Darwinian gender prerogative. However, if a guys adopt a similar attitude, then women, as implied in your article, justifiably resent it as being unfair, unchivalrous, re-writing the laws of nature and exploiting feminism. Both women and men have an equal right to choose. If you are a woman and like a guy then give him the signal. If he doesn't respond then take it on the chin (like guys have to do). Or are you saying that women have a biological gender based right not suffer rejection or lack of interest?

      Anyway, I will end by saying that if two people just click then the relationship will develop naturally with both parties feeling secure in it. No need for hoops to jump through!

    • savvydating profile image
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      savvydating 16 months ago

      If you don't want commitment and if you are being honest about it with the women you bed, then you are good to go. However, some women don't understand the part where "the guy isn't interested in anything more than short or long term fun without commitment. I am here to teach women how to understand the difference. The women I speak for would be wise not date you, Malcolm. That being said, some women are into fun and only fun. They are apparently OK with the male gatherer. I am simply here to let them know that if they are looking for commitment, the male gatherer is not the way to go.

    • malcolmingaround profile image

      malcolmingaround 16 months ago

      Lol - "No offence, but you are a coward". None taken.

      I would say that if my approach to dating prevented me from having fulfilling relationships with women and I lived my life feeling as if I were missing out on something, then perhaps yes, cowardice would be an accurate descriptor. If, on the other hand, my approach gets me what I want without doing any harm to anyone, then I would call it more pragmatic. The risk/reward ratio has to make sense for most men to consider engaging in behaviours, and it seems to be out of balance lately.

      In some ways I do regret the mistrust between the sexes, and ideally people should be suitably paired up with like minded partners in balanced relationships, but anybody with any sense learns that we can't have everything and we have to make the best of the landscape we inhabit. I'm certainly not going to risk having to go back to work again to earn back what I might lose (either directly to a woman or in lawyer's fees) should a relationship not work out. The world has changed and there are fewer and fewer financial opportunities available. I certainly don't see the same opportunities for my own children as I had. It's more important to me to be able to provide financial assistance to my kids than spend time and effort and risk on a fairy tale scenario that statistics clearly indicate is not a good bet.

      It's easy for you to say that someone doesn't have the guts to "date a woman who might not stay" - but why on earth would I make it a goal of mine to date a woman who might not stay? The purpose of dating (the way I see it) is to see whether two people are compatible enough to go beyond dating and form a relationship. Once in a relationship the pressure will mount with the "where's the relationship going" questions, and next will be appeals for higher levels of commitment. When there are viable, practical and pleasing alternatives to that whole rigmarole, who can be blamed for taking them?

    • savvydating profile image
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      savvydating 18 months ago

      Hello Non de Plume....I thank you for your comment. I see that both men and women are "fed-up" and that is why I advocate a return to an era of chivalry---where the lines of romance were quite distinct. However, given the changes within our modern times, "old fashioned romance" is difficult to achieve.

      I see that men are suspicious of women, and frankly, I am sorry for any woman who chooses to use men for financial gain. However, you should know that most women simply want a man who loves her and who is committed just as men want women who are committed and who will not cheat. In some ways, both male and female are not all that different when it comes to our end goals. We both prefer fidelity..

      Nevertheless, both men and women have to come to terms with their own weaknesses before they can hope to accept another for his/her shortcomings. Long story short, dating is complicated. Personally, I am not happy with with certain changes which have taken women and men down a darker path---and I will not elaborate here. Suffice it to say that a truly good man will praise a woman's successes without feeling threatened. And yes, women still need romance.....as I've said in this article and most of my articles. Consequently, the woman also has to step it up and not act like a man if she wants to attract a man. (Margaret Thatcher is a good example of a strong woman who was also committed)

      Anyway, there is otherwise no point in a man pursuing a woman? You have to understand, de Plume, some women act like men because they have been disrespected as women. Frankly, I believe that this feeling is not helpful, but it exists nevertheless, oftentimes for good reason. Our society has changed and I do not know whether we will ever find our way back. Even I have encountered men who just want to bed me---no strings attached. Those men do not have my respect and I will not engage with them except to point out their misconceptions. If any man wants "easy love" he can always pay a prostitute.....but he will not give him the companionship and respect he craves. Frankly, any man who cares more about his pension than the value of a truly loving mate has some serious problems, and he will end up alone unless he has the money to seek out enough prostitutes. Love does not come with a 100% guarantee. I suggest both men and women "grow up" and stop blaming your problems on someone else.. Become the man or woman you were meant to be and then you will be able to recognize the mate who really is worth your precious time.

    • Non de Plume 18 months ago

      Dear Savvy Dating

      To be absolutely succinct, you have missed the point completely. Men are fed-up, and they are manning up. All the male posters (replies) have been entirely consistent on this one point. Entering into or committing to a relationship with a woman in today's world is far too risky for a man. His response has take two forms. He can either be a player (hunter) with absolutely no conscience (pump and dump) or he can be what you refer to as a gatherer (indifferent) . You tell us you want to be pursued, romanced, and courted. We're (men) are telling you we don't give a dam what you women want anymore. Take us or leave us, we don't care. We don't want marriage or Common-Law, even if there was a iron clad pre-Nuptial Agreement. The risks, by your own making, are far too great. I've seen men lose everything, home, child support (even if the kids are not theirs), alimony, 401K, Pension Plans, inheritance, assets, savings, cars, at the whim of a female who decides to end a marriage (even is it is the wife who brings down the marriage because of adultery). Guys are not going to stick their dicks into a meat grinder. Men are unjustly hauled off to incarcerations at the scream of domestic abuse, rape, molestation, harassment. So men are dealing with it and manning up. They are no longer playing your game.

    • savvydating profile image
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      savvydating 19 months ago

      Say Yes, we agree on one thing....and that is that women have to step up their game too!. Hence, one of the reasons for this article. If a woman accepts a man who is nothing more than a sperm donor, with an exciting personality, then her children will suffer. That is the point. You and I agree on that. Consequently, both men and women have to be more discerning. Choosing a mate is not just about how you feel. Sometimes feelings are no more than lust if a man or woman has not honestly learned to build their character. Choosing the right partner means we take the time to observe their actions as well as our own.

      The old adage is true..."Actions speak louder than words." I would only add, "....much louder."

      Thank you for commenting. I believe that honest debate is useful.

    • Say Yes To Life profile image

      Yoleen Lucas 19 months ago from Big Island of Hawaii

      Women are so quick to cry victim and complain about men, without regarding how they’re contributing to the situation. Sure, there are bad guys out there, but I’ve seen way too many women who blame them for everything. About single mothers – many of them are that way by choice. I know someone who had 7 kids by 7 boyfriends; she kept the first, and gave away the others to foster care. Obviously she didn’t give a rat’s @$$ about the quality of life of those babies. The care home owner I relocated to Seattle with had 3 kids; she bragged about how she raised them all herself, but being the shyster she is, I can see why (her ex-husband was an alcoholic; I can see why, too). I can tell you a bunch of such stories. Suffice it to say, if I had a son, I’d tell him to be REAL careful.

      In the 1970s, Ann Landers ran a poll asking people if they’d marry the same partner if they could choose again. About half the people said yes. One man who did had been married 50 years; he said, “Women had character in those days”. I think a lot of American women have become cynical, and as a result, don’t’ bother to look for the good in men; they just have babies out of wedlock and try to soak men for all they can get. They don’t even give relationships much serious thought.

      There are a lot of good men out there. Women just have to present themselves as good women and seek them out.

    • savvydating profile image
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      savvydating 19 months ago

      Briggs, you do not sound like a "male gatherer." The gatherer is someone who is an easy come, easy go kinda guy. He does not take responsibility for his children or for helping to provide or contribute to household expenses. Basically, he provides sex and empty promises, but nothing more.

      It sounds as though you've run into your fair share of "female gatherers." These materialistic women are not worth your time. Just keep in mind, the common denominator is you. How is it that you keep choosing such insincere women? Are you only attracted to the bombshell with the long legs and the large breasts? The point of this article is not to demean. but to guard against dating the wrong type of people. Frankly, "gatherers" are easy to spot. Our job is to avoid them. Not all women are like the one's you've chosen to date. It would be unfortunate for you to give up on having a meaningful relationship with a woman because of all the fears you've listed. I think you're better than that, so you might want to look into developing a keener eye or better intuition, if you will. When all is said and done, the purpose of this article is to warn against "gatherers." I am not throwing all men under the bus, nor should you place all women in the same category. I wish you happiness, whether you remain alone or not.

    • savvydating profile image
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      savvydating 19 months ago

      Thank you, word55. I appreciate your input very much. I am glad that you can see why I had to delete his comment. Furthermore, I have moderated my settings. This should help....I hope! ;)

    • word55 profile image

      Word 19 months ago from Chicago

      Hans, Women shouldn't be degraded here. This is a place of free speech however, respect should be maintained at all times. A lot of the remarks here appear to be personal, irrelevant and off the point. I am appalled that God is mentioned along with such offensiveness. Of course, all men are not dogs and neither are all women. In order for us to understand each other better we must at least communicate intelligently and with utmost respect. Thank you savvy again for presenting such a good topic to discuss. I don't blame you for not disclosing unnecessary mess. A man should display more class than what I read here today.

    • savvydating profile image
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      savvydating 19 months ago

      Oh Dan....the point of the hub is to show how male gatherer's believe it is okay to avoid commitment. Nevertheless, society benefits from committed relationships and marriage. Why do you think the Gay community is fighting so hard for this right of marriage that you so ardently wish to throw down the toilet?

      If you continue to show up here with no point other than to disparage love and commitment there will come a time when having you on this blog may not be beneficial to anyone. As to your point about divorced men who are now single and who DO NOT LIVE AS LONG, well, that is because they prefer to be married. Because things went "south" they are now lonely, cynical and unhappy....and yes, their lives are less satisfying---even though they usually keep a good portion of their money.

      In truth, such men do not become Walmart Greeters---but maybe they should. A huge dose of humility would probably do them quite a lot of good. I know because I've had the misfortune of meeting a few of these men. They actually thought I was stupid enough to be bought. I never gave them the chance. Such men are boring, boorish, and self-centered. They simply are not grown ups. If you have chosen to be one of those men, then I can assure you---your time on this blog will be brief. I've let you in as an example for women who wish to know what the male gatherer sounds like. ....sorry, sweetheart.

    • Dan 19 months ago

      Sorry darling,but that whole 'married men live longer" is a myth that has been disproven over and over by numerous studies,not least of which is from the "Longevity Project"

      In just on example it shows that men who get divorced don't live as long as those single. And seeing as 45-50% of marriages end in divorce,just this one fact throws all the "married men live longer" BS under the bus.

      Nice ad hominem attack though "you'll never experience love" etc- YOU DON"T KNOW ME.

      BTW I've missed nothing of the whole point of the hub,which is to lie and guilt men into being ATM machines for a new generation of princesses who feel they deserve it all.

      "But hey, you'll still have your Cynicism and your Money. "

      Cynicism,or a realistic view on a world in which 45-50% of marriages and 60-70% of common law relationships fail?

      Money,yes I'll have it. Better than being a WalMart greeter at 70 years old because some woman got 70% of my life's work....

      Will you let this stay on your blog?

    • savvydating profile image
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      savvydating 20 months ago

      IKE, What sociologists have found is that marriage actually benefits the man more than the woman. Men who are married report being happier overall, than single men. Furthermore, married men tend to be healthier and earn more money. The reason they are healthier often has to do with the wife, who will remind her husband to have his yearly physical, or to cut down on the habit he seems to be developing of eating three bowls of ice cream instead of one. In other words, she looks out for him. As for making more money, the married man begins to see himself as a provider who is committed to his wife and future children. He begins to understand his responsibility as a father. In short, the state of marriage causes him to be more motivated and less selfish. He becomes more of a "grown-up" instead of someone who simply lives for temporary pleasures. Ultimately, this shift to manhood and commitment is more rewarding because the man feels motivated because he has a wife. He begins to appreciate his role as provider---and that is not to say the woman does not do her part. Often the woman works and takes care of the children and cooks most of the meals and makes sure the wash is done, etc. etc. However, in marriages that fail, at least one party has chosen not to develop a sense of responsibility.toward another.. Their selfishness destroys the marriage, which is intended as a lifelong commitment.

      The reason women push for marriage is because she senses that the quality of the partnership is improved. When you commit your life before friends and family, the idea is that the man is there to stay. Anything else is too tentative and therefore unsatisfying for a woman in the long run. Through the centuries, marriage has been recognized as a stabilizing factor in society, and for the most part, this is still true today. Men benefit from this stability.

    • IKE 20 months ago

      IT IS INTERESTING REALLY. HOWEVER I DON'T UNDERSTAND WHAT IS THE BENEFIT OF RELATIONSHIP OR MARRIAGE FOR THAT MATTER. I AM TALKING FOR MEN.WHAT IS THE BENEFIT....

    • Dan,again 20 months ago

      "men... are more concerned with holding on to their assets than they are in viewing marriage as a partnership where each person lifts up the other."

      Darned right,I worked 20 years to build myself up..and YOU think that just because a woman " woman puts her heart into a marriage and he leaves (perhaps due to her cheating,her unwilling to partner) she still has a right to some financial security"

      Seriously,no wonder the sugar daddy websites are jam packed-it's cheaper........

    • savvydating profile image
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      savvydating 20 months ago

      Yes, I know about players and their methods of "chasing." I addressed them in another hub. I do see that men get hung up on the word "chase" in this hub. I also realize that the concept of pursuing a woman, simply because a man is interested and not because he is out for the kill, may seem like an antiquated notion, but it works and women appreciate it. Naturally, I would not expect a man to pursue a woman who isn't interested in him, but keep in mind, she cannot know he is interested unless he acts like it. Furthermore, it's incredibly frustrating for a woman if the guy is too stoic. If he cannot even be bothered to call, text, send smoke signals, anything, then why bother? If he acts like a male gatherer, he probably is one....and that is a turn off for any reasonable, romantic woman. One more thing---women like this hub because they "get" this male gatherer phenomenon all to well, and they are tired of having to chase men.. Furthermore, the male gatherer will leave the minute he "thinks" the going is getting a little bit rough---or is he "thinks" she isn't interested. He simply doesn't have the energy or the interest to find out the truth. Consequently, I believe the woman may as well move on o that she can meet someone who is willing to show her that he cares.

    • savvydating profile image
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      savvydating 20 months ago

      Hi word55....Women pretty much feel that men are hung up on looks, so I guess it works both ways. .I've met a handful of women who are materialistic, but overall, most women I know expect to work outside the home and contribute to the marriage financially. That being said, there has been a shift in male-female relationships, which is why I wrote this hub. Things have changed since the 60's, and not all in a good way.

      In any event, I couldn't agree with you more about being down-to-earth and having a spiritual life together. It really is the only way anything works out for the long term. Thank you for commenting!

    • word55 profile image

      Word 20 months ago from Chicago

      There are a lot of good guys out here but a lot of women either overlook them or want to take advantage of them. Women get hung up on looks more so than what the guy is really about in average situations. In other situations, some women are more interested in how much money he makes and can spend on her. In the long run she can lose out for that. The other sad thing is: women have switched places where men used to be. There are more women players now then there used to be. The only relationships that I see working in the future are the down-to-earth spiritual ones where God is at the forefront.

    • savvydating profile image
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      savvydating 21 months ago

      It's sad when the man let's the woman do all the work. How boring is that? Thanks for stopping by, peachpurple.

    • peachpurple profile image

      peachy 21 months ago from Home Sweet Home

      yes, men should be chasing the girls, not the other way round

    • savvydating profile image
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      savvydating 2 years ago

      Hello sonfollowers. Thank you for your exceptionally thoughtful response. There is no question that the objectification of women is a big problem in our society, and yes, according to studies, porn is a problem. I appreciate that you understand what I am trying to say. It really is important for us to teach our male children to have greater respect for women....and women also need to be taught to understand their value. You've made an excellent point here! Thank you. I appreciate it.

    • sonfollowers profile image

      sonfollowers 2 years ago from Alpharetta, GA

      Wow, this is great, great advice. All of it. Granted it was not directed at me (I am a guy, after all), but I was in the dating world not too many years ago and I have heard lots of stories from women I dated at the time. Also, I've met guys who are exactly like the gatherers you describe--serial daters, no interest in commitment, "stick around until they get bored and move on" kind of guys.

      At the end of the day, I think it starts with objectifying women. Women are like kleenex--a thing to use briefly and throw away. It's nothing personal. Or intimate, or respectful, or honest (because how many women would fall into it if he was up front about it?). Maybe this generally has something to do with the effects of pornography? Porn is really just video-kleenex. It's the same thing but without a live woman in the room. This coupled with general laziness and an "I am the center of the universe" mentality and I think you end up with the male gatherer. It's very sad and I'm sure for women it's incredibly frustrating.

      I hope that those of us who recognize this trend take it upon ourselves to be laser focused about raising up our male children to be something different. I heard someone say once that being a male isn't the same thing as being a man. This world needs more of the second one.

    • savvydating profile image
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      savvydating 2 years ago

      JMH, As I said, "Thus, the distinctions between the sexes are blurred. Our sexual revolution has created confusion about the relational roles between male and female."

      And as an aside, what most people don't know is that the male hippies of the 60's were very sexist.

    • JMH 2 years ago

      I agree with everything PMartin has said, with regards to all the double standards (not saying there isn't any with men) modern men of this day and age have been modelled in the women's own image, they shave their body hair, get spray tans, feminine haircuts, like to gossip about useless trivial things. I'm an Australian male, I've seen this shift in culture and it is driven solely by females. The man is catering more and more to the females needs with regards to physical appearance, what's acceptable in social situations and dating, what to strive for etc. I have nothing against women's rights and laws preventing sexual harassment, what I do have a problem with is your sexist article describing men's entitled mentality when it's the women that have driven the change in men. Men have changed because it's what gets them women. I find women and men balance each other out in regards to relationships, but if women continue to drive this 'change yourself and commit to me' attitude then it throws the whole dating paradigm out of wack. The men become more and more submissive, leaving the women 'unfulfilled' etc, why do you hear about the 'falling for the bad boy' stereotype all the time? Because the 'bad boy' acts like a man, doesn't bend to the females rules and acts on instinct alone, probably too extreme but they're closer to an alpha male than the latte metrosexuals that stroll down the street gossiping about E News.

    • savvydating profile image
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      savvydating 2 years ago

      Hello PMARTIN....Thank you for a candid response. Food for thought on how complicated dating and gender equality issues have become. One can "navigate the waters," but it's harder to do nowadays.

    • PMARTIN 2 years ago

      Interesting but I feel that women have created this difficult situation. Equality has gone pass equal pay for equal work. Society have thrown out confusing signals--men should be gentlemen but she is offended if asked to be a lady. His confidence is labeled cocky or that dreaded word "macho" but her confidence is called being assertive and is a strength. He is critical of woman's behavior and is labeled "sexist"--she can criticise men and is not a sexist. She wants to be pursued but she has placed into effect laws that can drift him into sexual harrasment depending on her mood. I read a news article last month of offensive remarks men say to women in public but somewhere simple pickup/compliment lines. Dangerous to pursue. I think today's women need to first deal with the feminist whinners in their camp to stop screwing up for the "normal" women.

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      savvydating 2 years ago

      What a delightful message! Thank you Kenneth.

    • Kenneth Avery 2 years ago

      Hi, savvydating,

      Just wanted to tell you again what a terrific writer you are. And to keep up the great work

      Kenneth

    • savvydating profile image
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      savvydating 2 years ago

      Hi DarthW...It is always interesting and informative to hear a man's perspective on dating and relationships, particularly American men. You are correct in saying that some men hunt in order to keep score. But they are lazy hunters and they don't last long long. My point is that if a male is not willing to put in any time for a woman, then she may as well move on. Once things get less than convenient, he'll be "outta there" anyway. So she may as well not go there in the first place. Basically, he doesn't know how to handle conflict with integrity and HE has a strong sense of entitlement... which he has not earned. He's the sort of guy who is into "test driving women." I find them beyond boring and not worth my time. They are not men... just lazy hunters.

      Also, not all women are as you describe. Your broad generalization is false. In this article, I am referring to a certain type of man. I do not throw them all under the Volkswagen bus.

    • savvydating profile image
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      savvydating 2 years ago

      DarthW, It sounds like you've had some bad luck with women. Personally, I do not recommend using men for their money. That's wrong and foolish... and it always backfires. But not all women are that irresponsible. My article is not about "withholding sex." It is about waiting until a woman is comfortable that she has found a "keeper" who understands commitment. But make no mistake, commitment works both ways. The woman must also be committed.

    • DarthW 2 years ago

      Men don't want to commit because we're don't want to risk the financial ruin that comes with marriage and divorce especially when most women seem to feel they are so "worthy" and "entitled" to his earnings, home, 401K, etc. With the divorce rate at 50% for first marriages, then 70% for second marriages where men usually are the ones fleeced for alimony, child support, and then don't get to see the kids much, why would we bother with commitment.

      At my age, most of the women I could date are single moms with tons of debt, owning nothing, dealing with a lot of drama with their ex - and perhaps bratty kids, and more garbage like that. Most often (70% of the time statistically) it was these women who asked for their divorce - sometimes legitimately, but often simply because they felt "unhappy" and "unfulfilled", so they now want me to commit to the mess they created while I pay their debts, give them half my home, pay for kids that aren't mine, because if I don't I "must not love her". Screw that. Then when she gets unhappy the second time around (which 70% of women do 70% of the time the second time around), she can fleece me of everything I've worked for in 20 years. LOL. No way.

      A buddy of mine divorced a year ago. His wife is getting ready to get married again after fleecing him. When he said to her "Are you sure you want to marry this guy?" She replied, "I can always divorce him if it doesn't work out. I've already been through that." She has four kids, and found her a younger, naïve idiot who she will likely divorce in a few years taking anything that guy has....and create another wiser male who won't bother dating any of you women for anything more than sex either.

      Women have created their own mess. Go ahead an withhold sex. Married men are already used to going without. Divorced men have already played that game. We single guys don't want sex badly enough to commit to you anymore.

    • savvydating profile image
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      savvydating 2 years ago

      Hi DDE. You are right. Basically, women have to take the lead by holding back. A man almost never will. His brain is wired differently, yet he generally respects the woman who can say "No" or "Not so fast."

      Nice to see you and as always, thanks for stopping by!

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      Devika Primić 2 years ago from Dubrovnik, Croatia

      Women should take care of themselves and let themselves fall into a man's trap. Hold on t o what they have and what is precious to them and should not be giving in all the time. Most guys like fooling around and look at most women as tarts to avoid any decent woman should know when they have had enough of a man and when to let go.

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      savvydating 3 years ago

      Hello Robert Talbot. I do not wish men to be emasculated, nor should women be doormats. That is basically the point of the hub. So in some areas, you and I agree. However, I disagree with your characterization of all women and all men. The world is not that black and white. My goal is to help women to detect men who prefer easy sex. You've shown us quite clearly that such men exist. Thus, you have proved my point. That having been said, I appreciate your taking the time to share your comments.

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      Robert Talbot 3 years ago from New York, New York

      Savvy,

      I see in some of your responses you talk about not being judgmental yet, on the other side of your mouth you are extremely judgmental in other responses.

      I believe the problem today is extreme narcissism on both gender parts, but women especially, they want to be the center of attention and want men to jump to their every command.

      Unfortunately the only males that will put of with females that want marriage are doormat material. Nothing wrong with this, but most men don't want to be emasculated.

      In fact, not only do most of the men I know these days not want to date, women, but marriage is not even an option.

      Women these days, in the USA, lack so many feminine qualities yet they want to be treated like a lady. Us guys laugh about this fact all the time.

      Who wants a women that is trying to be a man, and to boot she tries to emasculate him to the new world ways? lol not a chance.

      Most Alpha males have opted out of anything serious with a women, because the net benefit is not there long term, and the short term benefit would only be sex which men can pay for anywhere, and not have the repercussion or drama from today's females.

      Actually us men are so sick of the way women act these day's we have a saying why we hire escorts.

      " We are not paying for the sex, but for the woman to leave after we are done."

      As harsh as this sounds, it's the truth and most women and feminized or emasculated males will deny, defend, and/or freak-out with these statements, but the sometimes the truth is what is needed.

      Most men that are in control of there lives these days do not want the drama that comes along with modern day females, so go ahead and flame away because that is what most modern women are good at. Drama, irrationality, and denial of the truth.

      Rob

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      Yoleen Lucas 3 years ago from Big Island of Hawaii

      Thanks, SavvyDating! I'll send you a fan email right away!

    • savvydating profile image
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      savvydating 3 years ago

      Hi, Say Yes To Life. Where there's a will, there's a way. You will have to get to know these guys on-line in the beginning. The reason I like eHarmony is because they know what kind of questions to ask. Frankly, they select questions that give you LOTS of great insight about a person's character. (They'll even give you warnings along the way, if needed.) And you can choose from their list or ask your own questions. If you choose not to go that route, then you can go the Facebook route and send emails. Just take things slowly though, by chatting with a group, because some people are liars (as everyone knows). Also, some Europeans have a lot of vacation time, and can get to the U.S. on short term visas. If they are interested, they'll show up. Now go get your passport in case they send for you, and start believing!

      Best of luck, and feel free to ask me any questions anytime. You can always email me directly thru Hubpages too, if you wish.

    • Say Yes To Life profile image

      Yoleen Lucas 3 years ago from Big Island of Hawaii

      P.S. How do I get to know a man when I can't be where he is? I'm halfway around the world from Central Europe.

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      Yoleen Lucas 3 years ago from Big Island of Hawaii

      Thanks, SavvyDating! I'll check those options out!

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      savvydating 3 years ago

      Hi lovedoctor926. Yes indeed, the sooner we recognize "gatherer man" for who he is, the sooner we can avoid him like the plague. I once knew a man who had formerly lived in a commune. (Don't worry - we weren't dating.) Anyway, he relished the free-love thing (needless to say) but he also wondered why "all the women in the commune" were (in his words) "so messed up."

      I said to him, "For crying out loud, if you were having children with men and you didn't even know who the father was or even if he gave a damn, wouldn't you be messed up?" Frankly, the free love thing wasn't working then and it isn't working now. Sure, we all enjoy sexual pleasure - but women also need to know that the guy she's in bed with actually cares about her. In that regard, nothing has changed, as far as women are concerned. Yet there are men, both young AND old, who have a sense of entitlement, and frankly, this bugs me to no end. My way of thinking is, "No, it's the other way around, you prove to me that you're a man, and then we'll see. It is my belief that all women can feel confident about this attitude, provided she is also "stepping up" and acting like a lady. That is not to say we are not aware of our sex appeal; rather, it just means we know that the decision to have a more intimate relationship is under our control. Period. A guy who is really interested will "get that" and he'll act like a gentleman, because he will know he has no choice if he wants to make some progress...

      Now I'm rambling (and by the way, I don't mind a bit when others do the same since we all need to vent) But, just look at the Bachelorette. I see these young men falling all over themselves for a young lady - and even defending her honor and I think to myself. "How sweet. Love and chivalry are still alive and well." And it is. I've experienced it many times.

      I like your suggestion about the list of values. As for announcing on the first date or two, that we are interested in marriage - I wouldn't go there. It might freak a man out, and it would be understandable because it really does take time to get to know if we've met "the one," in most cases. The most I would say is, "I'm not into short term relationships." He'll get the message.

      Thanks for dropping by and leaving your comments. I enjoyed reading them!

    • lovedoctor926 3 years ago

      Excellent hub. "Frankly, our new male prototype has become adept at not putting in the time and trouble for women." You hit the nail on the head. Most single men these days see a serious relationship or commitment as an obligation. They don't want to give anything, but they expect to receive all the sexual benefits that come after you're in an exclusive relationship. At least this is how I see it and believe me my friend I am quite disappointed myself. I think men these days play too many games and all they are interested in is how many women they can bed, but what can I say? Many women have no dignity and self-respect so since it has become easier for men to get what they want when they want, then what's the point of commitment? this is their mentality. What I really don't understand about men is why they invite you out one or two dates, you have an awesome time, both of you enjoy each other's company but then you don't hear back from him for several weeks or even a month. I've had this happen to me a lot. Again, I think these are all mind games. Personally, I like a man of action, who is decisive and knows what he wants. I think women need to grab a pen and paper and jot down all the qualities and attributes they seek in a man as well as the deal breakers & re-read that list several times daily so it can sink in. Depending on what it is that a woman is looking for she should let the guy know upfront. you can say something along these lines.. I don't mind dating for sometime, but I am looking to get married and have kids in the near future so I'm not looking to casually date forever. Sorry for my ramble. Thanks for sharing your knowledge and wisdom with us.

    • savvydating profile image
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      savvydating 3 years ago

      Hi, Say Yes To Life. Frankly, I like European men very much. They have an old world charm about them. But to answer your question, it isn't a good idea to marry anyone you hardly know. It really takes time to know a man, and it is important to observe him in different situations. Men and women always put their best foot forward in dating, which is a good thing, but this politeness does not necessarily reveal their innermost selves. So, my answer is no - I do not think you should have returned to marry the German/Austrian guy. But if you are interested in marriage with a foreigner, and if you prefer younger men, then where there's a will there's a way. You might find a club right where you live (not a bar) that has gatherings for people of different cultures. You could likely find this on Facebook. You could also join an international dating site. Frankly, the only one I trust is eHarmony, but they will allow you to meet men from other countries and you can even choose the age range and specific country. Also, the Europeans like black women, especially Frenchmen. They find them very passionate and sexy. Just don't limit your options, and don't come on too aggressively. You have to maintain a little bit of mystery in the beginning; believe me, it works in your favor.

      I wish you the best of luck in finding a guy who is as full of life as you are! Having said that, you made a good point about things not being all sweetness and light, but that applies anywhere. The main thing is to take your sweet time and do NOT move In with someone you barely know. Ever.

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      Yoleen Lucas 3 years ago from Big Island of Hawaii

      SavvyDating – you just got through reading my memoirs of my European tour in 1982. I wonder now if I should have returned shortly afterwards and married a German / Austrian man.

      The reason I wonder this is, Astrid, the woman I’m still in touch with, got married in 1991 to the most wonderful man. He unfortunately died in 2006, but apparently he was careful to provide for her after his death, because she still lives in the same house and has the same job. When we spoke last month, she said she was looking for another man, and that it’s never too late.

      What scares me from going over there now is, I’ve heard German, Austrian, and Swiss men often get mail-order brides from Eastern European countries. I know Americans get mail-order brides, too; I had a co-worker who was one, from the Philippines. When I met her husband, I saw why he needed to get a mail-order bride!

      Foreign cultures often appear charming, but when you delve into them, you can discover not all is sweetness and light. While America has one of the highest divorce rates in the world, there are all sorts of reasons why other countries have lower divorce rates, and they’re not always positive ones.

      What do you think?

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      savvydating 4 years ago

      Pavel, I see what you mean, to a degree, because Sociologists have determined that people generally "mate" with others who are of similar attractiveness. Furthermore, most everyone feels good about dating people who are even more attractive than they are. However, I have met men who were not particularly handsome yet because of their confidence, charm, or poise, I found them attractive anyway. So you see, there are opportunities to meet beautiful women, depending upon how you present yourself. Mostly women like men who seem very male or masculine, if you will, as this arouses their feminine instincts.

    • Pavel 4 years ago

      All the girls I ve tried to connect to - rejected me. They were all good looking so I assume they had a way too much choices with choosing a partner that no man cannot imagine...So I ended up with a girl that is not attractive . We are happy together (well , she is happier) but in today's world where girls do nothing but reject a guy who tries to talk to them the only way to avoid lifeltime loneliness . A man cannot afford to "play hard to get" - no matter how attractive he is ! The privelige to be not available is there for women only. We as men have to be thankful for whatever woman that happens to like us ...

    • savvydating profile image
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      savvydating 4 years ago

      Hi Alice,

      We've all attracted our share of yahoos. However, I take heart in the fact that you have atttracted some decent guys; however, it sounds like you didn't quite know what to do with them once you found them.

      Another thing, when you say you are being "just me" I believe you. But, just maybe there are some signals you are sending about some of the anger and insecurity you are feeling inside that is turning the decent guys off. Rest assured there is hope and you can attract a higher quality man. I know this is true because it has been my consistent experience to attract some really great guys. Mostly, it has to do with your expectations. Also, a common mistake many women make is that they try too hard. I am currently drafting a hub about this matter. I've neglected my hub writing, frankly, and it's time I got back on board so that I can try to help more women who are frustrated...

    • Alice 4 years ago

      Im sick of men I don't pretend to be anything I'm just me and all I attract is older men, chavy men or just men looking for sex I'm soo pissed off and if I do attract a decent guy I accidentally blow it

    • savvydating profile image
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      savvydating 4 years ago

      Hi Aaron,

      I've been computerless for a week, thus the delay in getting back to you. At any rate, I appreciate your comment. If you will notice, I had distinguished between playing hard to get and being hard to get. A woman who is hard to get is a woman who will not allow herself to be disrespected - sort of like you... I also stated that a woman is free to show her interest once she has determined that a man is worth her while. Perhaps you read the last paragraphs too quickly. Having said all that, I stand firm in that a woman must retain a bit of mystery. Mystery is not game playing, it is merely realizing that people are wary of those who wear their hearts on their sleeves every second of every day. Also, dropping anyone cold is judgmental. You would do well to look past the insecurity - hers and yours both. I have no doubt that you are sincere and I wish you well in finding a woman who loves you truly.

    • savvydating profile image
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      savvydating 4 years ago

      Thank you! In time, I intend to expand upon the principles of masculine and feminine and how they complement one another. It is my goal to chip away at the fear we have adopted over the years, particularly with regard to the "feminine" which many women are mistakenly "tossing overboard."

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      K.A.E Grove 4 years ago from Australia

      I have to agree, Somewhere along the line the roles got so blurred that its no wonder we are all so confused on how to interact with each other, great write

    • savvydating profile image
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      savvydating 4 years ago

      Thank you. I appreciate the thumbs up! If we can get more men to ask women out, the dating world will be a happier place.

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      bryanbaldwin 4 years ago from Los Angeles

      Bingo!!!! This is a great hub! I've had many conversations with confused men who won't lead the way out of fear it may "offend" her. Be a man!

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      Dawn A. Harden 4 years ago from CT-USA

      Women should not have to chase. It's bad form and usually doesn't work. Men do like to do the chasing.Good job!

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