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Why Women Are Frustrated and Confused About Men and Dating

Updated on August 3, 2017
Free Love guy.
Free Love guy.

Many women are confused and frustrated about men and dating....and they don’t know why. Here is my take on this malaise: At one time, men were the hunters and women were the gatherers. On an intuitive level, this essence is still alive today. However, since the advent of the sixties sexual revolution, American cultural standards have shifted.

Men and women are exhibiting somewhat androgynous behavior. It is now becoming politically incorrect to make distinctions between men and women. Mind you, not everyone believes men and women are exactly the same, but some do. Thus, the distinctions between the sexes are blurred. America's sexual revolution has created confusion about the relational roles between males and females.

Consequently, there is a whole lot of friction going on in the world of dating.

For example, in recent decades, women have begun hunting and gathering for the male, so to speak. Traditional romantic roles are going by the wayside. In and of itself, this is not necessarily a horrible thing, but it is confusing. Why so? Because our society has inadvertently produced a new male prototype who has become adept at not putting in the time and effort to pursue a woman who truly interests him---the way men used to do.

Such men are convinced that it is perfectly fine for him to be "a gatherer," but the problem is, women are not natural "hunters." Nevertheless, because women are ever the adapters, they have chosen to compensate for the rise of the culturally androgynous male, aka, the "male gatherer." She has now assumed his previous role---that of protector and provider.

Who is the male gatherer? He is the male who claims to have embraced equality, but who actually doesn't respect women all that much. You've come across him. He is the guy who let's the women come to him. He does not pursue women. He lives solely for his own pleasure. His take is, "If women want equal rights, let her prove herself to me."

1960s Cultural Movement

The downside of the sexual revolution is that it has discouraged commitment (and romance.)
The downside of the sexual revolution is that it has discouraged commitment (and romance.)

The 1960's cultural movement had good intentions and some positive outcomes. However, the sexual revolution has failed us in the area of love, romance and commitment. Unfortunately, too many American men have morphed into something we did not foresee coming----the "gatherer," who is not adept at committing, pursuing or providing.

Herein lies the crux of the matter: Feminists had the right idea about wanting more equality, as in equal pay, but they got a little side-tracked by the free love thing. What they didn't realize is that most men are more than happy to accept the "No Strings Attached" philosophy of "free love." His philosophy goes something like this: "If we live together, I will enjoy the convenience of having a quasi-wife, but without any messy responsibilities or financial risk."

The male gatherer is into "low stress" relationships. In the event he should decide a woman with whom he is co-habitating doesn't meet his needs after all, he has no problem leaving. His reasons why?

"She was too much trouble. Who needs the drama?"

Meanwhile, he takes pleasure in having sex on a regular basis. Gratification with no commitment and no repercussions---that's his motto.

Yet sadly, women offer themselves up to the male gatherer, even though he has lost his instinct for honest romance and true commitment. Courting women isn't part of the gatherers' paradigm. He believes relationships should be easy and uncomplicated. Easy come, easy go. His expectations do not mirror the truth, which is that anything worth having requires time and effort to have.

Thus, having experienced disappointment in dating for the umpteenth time, many women carry around a perpetual cloud of frustration and anger. Nevertheless, not wanting to appear passive, women continue the hunt.

“We have to go after guys," they insist. "If we wait, nothing happens." "What choice do we have?"

Tired mom.
Tired mom.

Women who feel this way have a point, but their premise is wrong. She has another choice. She can let the man seek her. Here’s the thing. Women actually like having the man pursue her. His effort shows her he has a level of interest. She finds his pursuit of her hot and efficient - sort of like the engine of a BMW.

But the gatherer guy....well...he lacks drive. He's a Ford Pinto, or maybe a Volkswagen bus. The easy love thing works for him, but it isn't working for her. Apparently, easy love isn't so easy after all. Unwed mothers who struggle to raise their children without father's know this better than anyone. Unfortunately, the children get the raw end of the deal.

Percentage of Single Mothers Who are Hispanic
Percentage of single mothers who are White
Percentage of Single Mothers Who are Black
Percentage of Single Mothers Who are American Indian
42%
25%
67%
52%
Kids Count Data Center

What Needs to Happen

"Free love" has caused so many misunderstandings between men and women, primarily because women are wired for commitment, not just casual sex.
"Free love" has caused so many misunderstandings between men and women, primarily because women are wired for commitment, not just casual sex.

So what's a woman to do? First, she must learn to recognize the male gatherer. She must then stop throwing herself at his feet. Forever. Male gatherer guy does not have the inclination or the stamina for true romance women crave. He always leaves women feeling emotionally shortchanged. Why? Because he is, in fact, emotionally stunted. Chances are high that he didn't have a father to teach him the responsibilities of manhood.

In any event, any woman who truly wants an emotionally satisfying relationship with a man must first decide to place more value on her worth, her time, her career and her passions. In so doing, she changes her own perspective about the value of her life. Women must realize that meeting a great guy is icing on the cake. Icing is delicious; it can make a lovely difference---but it is still optional.

Women Have to Step Up Their Game as Well

She must learn to appreciate her womanhood and everything that being a woman entails, to include embracing her femininity. She doesn't have to become a man to be "equal." We are all equal by virtue of our humanity.

I knew a man who was a former hippie. He was highly educated, but the gatherer/hippie mentality never really left him. Anyway, he told me that he had lived in a commune where he really enjoyed his life. He talked about how fun it was to get naked and paint women's bodies. This, I gathered, was a type of foreplay. He went on to say that the only disagreeable aspect of commune life was that the women were, "Really messed up."

Not exactly the picture of a woman who has it "together."
Not exactly the picture of a woman who has it "together."

I guess so. Having multiple partners, not knowing who the father of your child is, and whether or not your lover(s) even remembered you from the day or night before would make any woman "a mess." The dirty little secret about the free love men of the 60's is that they were rampant chauvinists. They made love, smoked pot, quoted Nietzsche, Karl Marx, and existential poetry. They didn't do much else.

Meanwhile, the woman cooked, cleaned, scrabbled for food and even made herself available to other lovers at the request of her "main man." You know, equal love and all that. It's no wonder these women were so screwed up.

Meet the New Boss: Same As the Old Boss

The point is, male gatherers of the 1960's sexual revolution got used to the perks of free love. Not hard to comprehend. The problem we have today is that many men are content to view women in the same disrespectful manner as did the hippies back then. Unfortunately, women are still falling for gatherers. The problem however, is that when the going gets rough, because gatherer guy believes "she has too many expectations that don't match with my idea of fairness," it is all too easy for him to walk away. His feeling is, "I'll go my way and she can go her way."

To be sure, not all men act that badly, and I am not at all making that assertion. What I am saying is that our permissive society has created the "male gatherer" who does not understand why love and commitment actually matter. He thinks what matters is his freedom. After all, no one taught him how to respect women. His frustrated mom was probably working all of the time, and good ole' dad was MIA. Maybe his mom even lost the values she once had. Thus, the male gatherer had no positive role models to teach him what it means to become a grown-up. Consequently, he remains self-serving his entire life.

Shifting Focus

Common Reasons Why Men Don't Commit:

  • Males can get sex without marriage more easily than in times past
  • Males can enjoy the benefits of having a wife by cohabiting rather than marrying
  • Men want to avoid divorce and its financial risks
  • Men fear that marriage will require too many changes and compromises
  • Males face few social pressures to marry

Rutgers University's National Marriage Project

So naturally, it behooves the woman to shift her focus toward worthwhile men who actually enjoy pursuing a woman, who exhibit patience and caring, and who are willing to ignore the trend that presupposes men and women are exactly the same in every way.

Men and women are not exactly the same. Our bodies are different, our brains are wired differently, we communicate differently, we have different mannerisms, and in some cases, we have unique needs. But the male gatherer would have you believe this cannot be true, as that would not be fair or equal for him.

Long story short, women must become adept at letting the male gatherer go. In other words, she must learn to pare down the dating field. The smart woman values herself far too much to waste her time on a man who treats her as if she is worthless.

Finally, women must learn to become responsible for all the bad romantic choices she has made. She absolutely must take personal responsibility for her poor decisions; only then will she be able to turn her life around and thus begin to let go of the anger and frustration she had carried before. She will now be in a position to proactively guide her dating life in a manner that will finally allow her to experience true love and romance---the kind that has purpose, meaning, and staying power.

Confidence is sexy!
Confidence is sexy!

The smart woman does not play hard to get---she is hard to get. Let me explain. Playing hard to get suggests that a woman feigns disinterest in a man to whom she is attracted. Being hard to get has to do with the psyche of a woman who is selective about the kind of men she chooses to date in the first place.

Once a woman has determined she is interested in someone, she is free to capture his attention. However, she does this with care. She does not rush into a situation without first finding out what she is getting into. She learns to make better choices, always with long term consequences in mind. She becomes a more responsible and thoughtful woman.

A Word About Communication

Communication is a good thing, but some ladies mistakenly believe they must open up about every single thing that has ever happened to them "because that is only fair and honest." But the truth is, there is no reason for any woman or man to reveal everything about their feelings or their past relationships, in the beginning stages of dating.

We must open up at our own pace. In so doing, we are respecting our parameters and sense of privacy---and this is as it should be. A secure partner will respect your need to share your life stories at your own pace. In fact, no one really has to reveal anything that isn't relevant to the current situation. On the other hand, excessive secrecy in any individual is a red flag.

Dating: An Art

A woman who is thoroughly uncomplicated and too eager to please will not attract the love of a man who has the masculine fiber women crave. Her confidence as a woman, combined with her feminine spirit, is the magnet that consistently attracts truly good men her way. The woman who knows how to date well is very much at ease with her femininity. A worthwhile man will readily pursue a woman like her, but he is easily bored with a woman who does not provide him with any challenges whatsoever. A good man isn't looking for a doormat to walk over. The worthwhile man respects a woman who has backbone. Only gatherer's hate being challenged.

Positive dating also recognizes and appreciates the core differences between men and women. In truth, regardless of our cultural leanings, it's actually quite pleasurable to embrace the distinctions between male and female, rather than constantly fighting against them or, worse yet, attempting to act like the opposite gender. Masculine and feminine traits actually complement one another quite nicely---sort of like two pieces of a puzzle.

From now on, let the male gatherer do whatever he wants to do, just so long as he isn't doing it with you. Your responsibility as a woman is to turn your attention toward the man who shows you that he cares---through his actions. Listen to your woman's heart and mind. Only then will you be assured of love that will stand the test of time.

Truly.....Savvy

Comments

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  • profile image

    happycamper10 3 days ago

    As many have stated, or alluded to here, we are at that "careful what you wish for" moment in women's battle for equality. At least in the metropolitan areas of the United States, we’re pretty much there.

    And, men are completely baffled - that women are baffled – by the state of relations between the sexes. It’s equality. And for the most part women don’t seem all that happy about the equality panacea they sought.

    Why is it that in couples where the woman is the primary breadwinner that the man is frequently viewed as lazy, unambitious, or in some way a burden to the woman? Whereas a couple in which the roles are reversed the woman is viewed positively, as a nurturing caring mother.

    And why is it so irksome to women that many men have rationally thought out that being with a woman in a long-term committed relationship just isn’t worth the hassle or the financial risk?

    Men aren’t bothered by women out there who reach the same conclusion about men – that men aren’t worth the trouble. It’s one more facet of life where you seem angry at us, and anger is not an attractive quality in either sex.

    Do we ever feel lonely? Do we miss sex? Sure, sometimes, but overall many men have very logically concluded that we are happier on our own, just enjoying our friends, golf, travel, music, life, and foregoing women.

    We’ve become ambivalent about it. And ambivalent men don’t hunt. And why should we – any more so than women - we’re equal, right?

  • savvydating profile image
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    savvydating 7 days ago

    Are you an MGTOW? For those who don't know what that is, the following is an explanation: The MGTOW community believe that legal and romantic entanglements with women fail a cost–benefit analysis and risk–benefit analysis. (Wikipedia)

    The gatherer guys I refer to are males who exploit women for their own use, who allow the woman to provide for him and their subsequent children, He expects the woman to clean, cook and pay all bills, while he does next to nothing except philosophize and complain about women. If you are not in that category, then the "gatherer" term does not apply to you. However, you may be a man who cares nothing for women, given your confusion that a woman actually appreciates having a man put some effort into knowing more about her. (Who knew?) Consequently, you might be in the MGTOW category. And yes, women should avoid either type of man like the plague, since neither type of man is capable of caring about her. However, he does care about her earning power and what she can do for him. Such men will never inconvenience himself for a woman. Consequently, he is no better than the (usually fictional) women he purports to hate. Any woman who wants a man like that needs serious counseling.

    Long story short, "C" if you cannot figure out why it is nice to be nice, then I can't help you. Thanks for reading.

  • profile image

    cubis 7 days ago

    Enjoyed your article, but still confused about this "gatherer" male who appears to be so toxic. Still trying to figure out how the woman seems "entitled" to this effort, pursuit and outward showing of interest from men ( who are then castigated for not showing the required predatory, hunting characteristic ) while men are not allowed to expect an equal (?) level of interest from women. Maybe this "gatherer" guy is just an introverted and cautious guy.

  • savvydating profile image
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    savvydating 4 weeks ago

    Smarmy, I'm impressed by your focus. Almost no one becomes a homeowner at age 18. Very impressive. To your last paragraph I would say you have no idea what kind of hell women go through in relationships. Personally, I don't put up with nonsense from men, thus my relationships are respectful.

    The reason I write is primarily to help women avoid bad men and attract good men. Both sexes have to be ready to give and to love if they are going to be happy together.

  • profile image

    Smarmy2 4 weeks ago

    My stepfather had a bunch of property he would buy old homes fix them up and rent them out. Mostly 2 families and a shopping center.

    I've always been a saver and started investing at 13, I bought the house when I turned 18 with cash I saved and a little starter cash "loan" from my stepfather. It was a real mess and I got it cheap. I worked at a hardware store and used a lot of "reclaimed" items to restore it.

    I'm not really spiritual, that is true but I have a moral code that I hold myself to.

    I invested my time in myself, pursuing women just isn't something I was good at or wanted to do. I went back to school, travelled around and learned to be self sufficient. Bought a beautiful old farm house and started over.

    Why should I risk losing it all again? Everyone seems to be playing with a different rulebook anyway.

    I will stick by my comment about women asking men out, these "gatherers" seem to me to be a not very believable work of fiction. Women simply don't ask men out very often. Most men I know have never been asked out. If they don't initiate they remain single and while most men as you say aren’t "happy" being celibate, you should ask yourself why some men would chose this over asking women out.

    Until you can put yourself in mens shoes and at least try to understand the difficulties we face, you shouldn't give advice that is only going to make things harder for everyone.

  • savvydating profile image
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    savvydating 4 weeks ago

    Did you not say that the one woman left you when you were 29? Did you buy your house at age 19? In any event, if you are happy, that's great. Most men are not happy if they are celibate, unless they have a rich spiritual life. You don't come across as spiritual, but perhaps you are. Mostly, you sound like someone who thinks all women are like your girlfriend of long ago. Anyway, thanks for commenting, Smarmy.

  • profile image

    Smarmy2 4 weeks ago

    I had trouble logging in and created a new account.

    Now I read your reply and you say that I have "deep, internal conflicts or issues to work out"

    Nope, I'm a pretty outgoing positive and happy person, I have lots of friends, both male and female, a progressive political bend and a solid moral core.

    I'm just happier on my own. I'm not into casual sex and understand the social and legal pitfalls women present in the modern world. I lost everything I had in the last relationship, my finances were left in a shambles, I lost my home of 10 years. A house I had spent many long hours restoring.

    But mostly I watched my friends go through worse, losing access to their children on top of losing their homes. Some are single dads struggling with a society that doesn't seem to include them.

    I got to this thread from a link on a forum discussing Tesla, I simply agree with his philosophy and would rather invest my time in more fulfilling pursuits.

    Dating is confusing, I don't pretend to understand it. But I do know that doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result is the definition of insanity.

  • profile image

    Cackus 4 weeks ago

    Wow, Pretty harsh on Smarmy.

    One male poster wrote :

    "All that said, many men are coming to the only possible logical conclusion concerning this imbalance-- that the only way for him to not lose (and end up completely emotionally, psychologically, and physically exhausted, along with potentially financially drained) is to not play-- i.e. eschewing marriage/children…. only engaging in short-term or hook-up relations, etc. while leaving women to their own devices."

    Here this guy decides that he isn't into the "hook ups" and short term relationships that you argue are the prerogative of the "gatherer male" and you decide after his one post he has "..some deep, internal conflicts or issues to work out." For simply stating he gave up on dating.

    Yet in another post you say it's just fine for women to make that same decision

    You have also completely ignored what several male posters have said about womens bad reactions to gentlemanly advances. Women can be quite harsh in their rejections no matter how innocent and well mannered. It doesn't take to many harsh rejections for men to say "I'm not doing that again"

    You might try doing a little research.. Just to get you started.

    https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/the-squeaky-w...

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-308...

    https://theblog.okcupid.com/your-looks-and-your-in...

    If this message is posted and not just censored for disagreeing with you I hope some of your readers will take a look and maybe learn a few things about the realities men (and women) face in the modern dating world.

  • savvydating profile image
    Author

    savvydating 4 weeks ago

    Smarmy...Not all men have given up as you have. One bad relationship is no reason to stop trying, but that's your perogative. I imagine you have some deep, internal conflicts or issues to work out. It's not too late.

  • profile image

    Smarmy 4 weeks ago

    This is an interesting thread. I came here through a roundabout channel. I don't date (never have) I married a girl I went to HS with when she asked me out.She left me when I was 29 and I never dated again. I'm 46 now .

    My experiences as a man suggest that you have created a really unrealistic strawman.

    I'm 6'2" tall extremely fit and handsome. (I used to model underwear you may see me if you buy hanes lol) Women don't ask men out and "gathering" doesn't work for men. To put it bluntly I'm one of the very few men that women do ask out and it's a rare event. For the average guy it's like being struck by lightning, winning the lotto and being eaten by a bear on the same day, it just doesn't happen.

    If men don't ask women out they are single.

    A lot of men just gave up. leaving the few odd (an I mean ODD in a bad way) men who hit on everything with a heartbeat to represent them .

    If you want a decent guy you have to take the initiative, otherwise you will get one type of man, and he's the type you should avoid.

    This article is bad advice.

  • savvydating profile image
    Author

    savvydating 5 weeks ago

    Jimmy...How unfortunate that you are willing to buy into the fear-mongering of men who are too cowardly to step up and be a man. These men blame women for their problems. If any man or woman consistently has bad luck with the opposite sex, the problem is with them, much more so than the other party. Time to grow up or be forever disappointed. That goes for either sex.

  • profile image

    Jimmy 5 weeks ago

    Well, the sheer number of men coming here to disagree with your text is enough to show its at least flawed. I myself don't want to risk losing daily connection to my children in a divorce so I'm already doing the math and use a surrogate in India or Ukraine. Women today only brings risk of major suffering. I'm definately not risking my neck !!!

  • savvydating profile image
    Author

    savvydating 5 weeks ago

    Never be afraid to play. If you never play, you've already lost. Plenty of people manage to date, get married, have children and live reasonably happy lives. Most of these people are "average" and not rich. I've meet plenty of them all the time. You're an intelligent guy. Try to figure it out by looking at yourself first, instead of having preconceived notions about everyone else. Best of luck.

  • profile image

    Muscrat 5 weeks ago

    If I showed a lack of manners it was because you find me at the end of a long road that has left me feeling more than a little confused and abused.

    The last thing I need are subtle hints and confusing body language. I honestly can't tell flirting from just being nice.

    You are correct in that I think it's time I changed my perspective. I started with cheerful optimism moved on to, this is going to take a lot of work then, if it happens it happens and that is where I was when I find this article describing men who wait for women as gatherers, so yes I was more than a little insulted and responded in anger.

    After reading this and other blogs here I'm getting to the point where it's time to concede. I have no idea what is expected of me and probably never will.

    Good luck to you

    "It's a strange game, the only wining move is not to play."

  • savvydating profile image
    Author

    savvydating 5 weeks ago

    Muscrat, The rest of your comment was too long to post, but you said this: "The point I'm making is that the current situation in our society makes asking women out problematic at best. Men are just recovering from job losses (a big blow to confidence) Workplace rules have made it clear that a misstep might be the end of your career and frankly it's simply not a good idea.

    Telling women they shouldn’t pursue a man they are interested in is a terrible idea. Opportunities are few and I don’t' see that trend reversing itself.

    I would also add that the men who are good at asking women out are probably the last men you should go out with. Having "game" is not something a good man should have. That's advice about the way men are from a man you should take it to heart. Bad men have "game" very very bad men have more. Go to a PUA site and read if you think I'm joking. I think it has a lot to do with some of the hatred women feel towards men, the only interactions they have are from men that should probably be in prison. As far as men are, in the dating "game" the scum rise to the top."

    Just to clarify, I did not tell women not to pursue men, per se. Rather, I have told women to let a man know she is interested in a subtle way, so that he can feel confident is approaching her. All she has to do is smile, make eye contact, say hello and introduce herself. He should be able to take it from there. Confidence in a man is appealing. I would say that you are a "glass half empty" kind of guy. Time to try a new perspective. The one you have clearly isn't working for you. This time around, you showed some manners. That's an improvement already!

  • savvydating profile image
    Author

    savvydating 5 weeks ago

    I meant that your comment about "toys" is inaccurate. When I use my iPhone to comment, it sometimes changes certain words.

  • profile image

    Muscrat 5 weeks ago

    " I have allowed this comment through since you cleaned up your language, unlike the last comment I was forced to delete"

    As I didn't use and bad language in my previous posts to this blog I can only conclude that it is the content of my argument you disagreed with and chose to censor for that reason.

    As to my comment being "immaculate" I have no idea what you mean by that, is it well dressed or free from fault, flaw and blemish?

    Please clarify, I wish to understand the rules here.

  • savvydating profile image
    Author

    savvydating 5 weeks ago

    Muscat, I have allowed this comment through since you cleaned up your language, unlike the last comment I was forced to delete. Nevertheless, your comment is highly immaculate. Sex toys are generally used by men and women in relationships "for fun." I think sex toys are ridiculous, but that's just me. Porn, on the other hand is in a category all its' own. It will ultimately destroy a man, unlike silly sex toys. Two very different things.

  • savvydating profile image
    Author

    savvydating 5 weeks ago

    David, Now you know how women feel.

  • profile image

    Muscrat 5 weeks ago

    " I hope you don't fall into the pornography trap. It's hard to claw your way out of that."

    I do agree with you on this one, porn to men is like a dildo or vibrator to a women. It's a substitute for human sexual interaction that promotes unrealistic expectations and odd fetishes.

    Men will be stimulated by the young thin and willing women they see in porn.

    Women will be stimulated by devices of size and activity that no human mans parts could replicate.

    Both are quite destructive.

    For men I would suggest that exercise can help and there are herbal remedies that can decrease your sex drive when it becomes inconvenient.

    I have created a mix of Licorice root, Saw palmetto, Chase tree berry extract and other natural ingredients that can significantly reduce the physical cravings for sex (and other problems) associated with longterm male celibacy. In fact it's the number one seller on my website I can't keep up with orders.

    So while I wait and look for a trustworthy women worth committing to a longterm relationship with I am not burdened by the intense sexual cravings that lead men to pursue less fulfilling relationships and can provide help to the many men who have decided to avoid sexual relations with women and those who are involuntarily celibate.

  • profile image

    David 5 weeks ago

    Here is the bottom line. When it comes to dating and romance these days, more and more men are saying..."Thanks, but no thanks."

  • savvydating profile image
    Author

    savvydating 6 weeks ago

    Thanks, Paula, for telling it like it is. Some of these guys also have "mommy" issues. Hard to tell what caused Jomama's anger. Such a shame to live with such unhappiness. What a waste of time.

  • fpherj48 profile image

    Paula 6 weeks ago from Beautiful Upstate New York

    Jomama.....Tsk tsk....You're very bitter and thus you are rude. Gather your toddler toys and play elsewhere until you learn to use manners.

    It must have been a really special, intelligent, superior

    woman, above your maturity level who dumped you and hurt you so badly. Sorry, but you're not allowed to take it out on the ladies of the Hub.

    Just try to be worthy next time. DROP the attitude.

  • savvydating profile image
    Author

    savvydating 6 weeks ago

    I never said hard-line feminism didn't create this mess. And by the way, I am not your honey. Do not call me that again.

  • savvydating profile image
    Author

    savvydating 6 weeks ago

    Sounds like you're stuck on the money issue. My feeling is that you are not capable of being a friend to women because you despise them. Good luck to you. I mean that. I hope you don't fall into the pornography trap. It's hard to claw your way out of that.

  • profile image

    Jomama 6 weeks ago

    Just another typical feminist apologist article that shows its hand early with lines like

    " Nevertheless, because women are ever the adapters, they have chosen to compensate for the rise of the culturally androgynous male, aka, the "male gatherer." She has now assumed his previous role---that of protector and provider."

    Sorry to break it to you honey but it was feminism and women who created the gatherer male not the other way around.

  • profile image

    Muscrat 6 weeks ago

    I just attended a mandatory training session at the university I work at.

    After watching it I would sooner walk across a busy highway at night dressed in black blindfolded than ask a women out given the universities position.

    But just for the sake of argument I'll discount the very real possibility of institutional action if my approach is unwelcome and the person I asked overreacts.

    Why should I take the risk of rejection and pay for the date? My gender?

    That's what this article boils down to, "men must do this". No men (or women) mustn't do anything they should both have a choice to do what they feel will bring them happiness.

    That said most , not some most, of my friends are %100 MGTOW. and by that I mean they are celibate men who are decent caring people with progressive political leanings good jobs and female friends. They will never ask a women out and would turn them down if they did. I really can't blame them, the risks are so high, the reward so low. I still have hope on finding a nice person who hasn't slept with 5 guys (and before you go on a tirade about it being ok for men to sleep with 10 women, it's not and I haven't and wouldn't) I've had 2 relationships both long term. I've never cheated but both cheated on me.

    I still haven't given up, but I will not ask them out. It's very clear that in today’s society it's much much better to leave that burden to the women. I have enough pressure to fulfil the laundry list of qualification most women seem to have today. Dating seems more like a job interview.

    Must be over 6' ...check

    Must have abs.... almost lol

    Must have a degree...check

    Must make over $175,000 a year crap....

    Nice car, Full head of hair, etc etc etc...

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    savvydating 8 weeks ago

    I am not making that assumption, Monk. However, I do know what women want. And actually, society has been kind to men for the most part. Japan may have some serious trouble if their population begins to dwindle even further---same as China.

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    MQNK 8 weeks ago

    My point was why do you assume to know what men want? Who is to say that men want the female role or to be as you say "gatherers". I for example just want to be left alone. Many men just want to be left alone at this point.

    I can imagine that you might want society to exist or thrive, but you have to understand that society was never kind to men. We are viewed as disposable when we turn 18 years old. As such, many men have chosen to simply abandon both concepts of gatherers and hunters. It's just a matter of time before men start neglecting sex completely. If you do not believe me, just look at the Japanese economy. Men are going leaving society in masses.

    You might be making the assumption that men care about what happens to society. You will be surprised how easy it is for men to live good lives with very little and how many are prepared to abandon society whenever they feel like it.

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    savvydating 8 weeks ago

    Hi Monk...I actually do not make that assumption, hence, the article on men who prefer what used to be the woman's role, If a couple has an understanding that the man stays home and she supports the family, then that is fine.

    I am mostly talking about dating and what women like, as well as the fact that if a man never had to pursue, he will simply become a male gatherer, which generally does not work out because male gatherers generally do not commit. They simply enjoy the ride, no matter how many baby momma' they leave behind. That's just not attractive or good for society. Just look at all the resentful boys who don't have dads.

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    MQNK 8 weeks ago

    Why do you assume that man still want to be man?

    I don't get this, we had feminism which fought to get women equal rights and out of the kitchen. Basically to make women not have to be housewives.

    Which is wonderful, but why do so many of you assume that men want to be the traditional man? Maybe men were waiting for an opportunity to relinquish themselves from their traditional gender roles.

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    savvydating 2 months ago

    How very "male gatherer" of you. Nevertheless, thanks for reading.

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    2 months ago

    What women seem to be missing is that this isn't about what women want or need. This is entirely about power.

    Women spent 50 years fighting to have all the power in every aspect of society but didn't understand is that power and responsibility go together. There is no separating them.

    Women decide when and if a relationship happens. Women decide who gets to have one and who doesn't. Women decide what form that relationship will take.

    From a male perspective, that means women also have all the duties, obligations, sacrifices, and responsibilities when it comes to those relationships.

    Of course men aren't putting in effort. Its not their job anymore. You have the power, that is your role to play. If women don't want to play it then those responsibilities can fall to the floor and go unfulfilled, and civilization ends as a result.

    Either way its no longer men's problem or concern.

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    savvydating 2 months ago

    But yet men are allowed to have 50+ partners, and no one says "Boo!" Funny how men long for the women of the 50's while still requiring her to embrace "equality." In short, she should pay 50/50....and remain as chaste as the driven snow. Too bad men like you have no intention of holding themselves to the high standards they expect of women.

    News flash: Good women don't want to date boys. Grow up.

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    cyp 2 months ago

    There is something you ignore:

    1. If a woman has sex with more than 4-5 guys she generally becomes incapable to commit to just one guy because her organism does not release oxytocin anymore.

    2. Only a loser would want for wife a woman that had many sexual partners. In my opinion for a man that respect himself a woman that has had sex with 5+ guys is in no way different than a prostitute. Why would anyone marry her?

    3. Women are desirable for marriage only until they reach 30. The wall may vary from woman to woman by a few years but once they hit it no true man will take them for more than one night.

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    savvydating 2 months ago

    Hello Maverick, I appreciate hearing your personal story. In the long run, MGTOW's tend to turn to online depravity to satisfy their sexual cravings. My hope is that you are not going to be one of them. I truly hope you can meet a nice woman one day. The best way is form platonic relationships and then see if anything develops over time. Also, your own social groups could introduce you to someone.

    You're only 25. There is plenty of time for you to meet a nice woman. But please realize that perfection is not possible. Thanks for stopping by.

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    Maverick876 2 months ago

    I am 25 and male, one of the few of my generation to come from a two parent household. My father taught me the importance of character, hard work, chivalry, honesty, integrity, etc etc. It pains me to say that society and what seems to my eyes to be the majority of women have turned there backs on good men. Its almost assured these days that if you extend respect, courtesy, genuine interest, in the world of dating it likely won't be reciprocated. I implore the women out there to take a real hard honest look at themselves and see if they truly are good women? Forgive me for being crass but men don't want to settle down with sluts and most find domineering women wholly unattractive. Then we have the system to deal with. Marriage these days for men is i'm sorry to say a fools move. It is far to easy to rob a man of his hard work, his children, and leave him in the gutter. You can see this reflected in the marriage statistics. Guys aren't stupid, we know a raw deal when we see it. There might be some women out there I could still trust but never the system you have at your disposal. This is firsthand experience folks and seems to be the general consensus among men. For all these reasons I'm now MGTOW and it would take a truly unique woman for me to even consider commitment. I don't hate women and I realize the modern man falls short as well. We as people need to start collectively turning from the depravity, the sin and bile shoved down our throats through television and other mediums. I'll always be a romantic at heart but they're would have to be a major shift in things for me to even consider anything beyond platonic friendship with women anymore. Just my two cents.

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    savvydating 2 months ago

    Don Fr, I never said women should be passive. I said the opposite of that. I've written another hub about men who insist on 50/50. For the record 50/50 doesn't exist. Life really doesn't work that way.

    Thank you for taking the time to stop by.

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    Don Fr 2 months ago

    Having read your article twice, I have to disagree with your positions.

    Men and Women are both providers. Both genders work for their livings or so they all should.

    Men can cook meals, clean the home, take care of laundry just as well as Women.

    Women can mow the lawn, put gas in their cars, change a flat tire just as well as Men.

    Both genders can serve in our military and in combat zones. Both can be Business Leaders.

    A Father and/or a Mother can be the primary care taker of the children.

    I am so thankful we don't live in the 1950's anymore. So is my mother, sister, grandmother. My father, brothers and most of my male and female friends feel the same way.

    "If you want something, what are YOU going to do to attract the results you are looking for in life!"

    Feminism is a great thing. More Women are graduating from Colleges than Men. More and more Women are in Manager roles. More Women are lawyers, doctors, athletes, actors, musicians and the list goes on.

    Do say Women need to be the passive sex is to a certain extent say that we need to turn back some parts of our society. I never want any Woman that I know to have to take a step backward.

    If I am interested in a Woman and I get the sense that she is interested in at least a hello introduction, then I approach. If the Woman is interested in me and I make eye contact with her, then she needs to approach. I've had female friends say that we guys need to be more understanding that Women nervous about approaching us guys. Well HELLO! You think Men don't feel the same way?

    Oh, I also always split the check and discuss it with any Woman prior to agreeing to a date. That gets me somewhere around 50/50 on a date but we both need to know prior to.

    It's the 21st Century. Western Culture, texting, sms, Facebook, Snapchat, Twitter, G+ and every other type of media that we can and do use. I haven't met many people under 40 that would want any of these freedoms taken away. Several in their 40' and some in their 50's that I socialize with acknowledge that they wouldn't want to have time roll back.

    Equal is Equal and I am hopeful that one day we as a society will all be treated exactly the same! If you want something then you better work for it. Life gives you NO GUARANTEES but you will never succeed if you don't put the effort in to having the life you want. Never wait for someone else to define you, determine your self worth, to ask you out, to ask if you want that job or promotion. You need to stand up for yourself and show that you want it while still being respectful of those that you are seeking to help you along the journey of life.

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    savvydating 2 months ago

    You have just thrown every single woman on the planet "under the bus." It would be well for you to realize that not all women are gold diggers. I am not, nor have I ever been. What you said is highly inaccurate. I hope that you find peace of mind one day.

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    The God's Honest Truth Again 2 months ago

    I know that i commented about this topic about 8 months ago which i would like to add more to my comment since everything that i have said was the real truth how the women of today have really changed from the past which is very unfortunate. Most women now do want a man that makes mega bucks today or has his own business altogether now which just shows me how very greedy and selfish that women can be these days since it is all about money for them. And i know that i did mentioned this already with my last comment since it is very difficult for a woman nowadays to accept us good men for who we really are. And this does make it very sad for us men very seriously looking for a good honest relationship which these type of women will never give us men a chance at all. And there are many of us men that can be very committed, loving, and very caring to just only one woman as well to make us happy which make our life very much complete as well. Now most women today are really users and losers altogether now and they really have destroyed many of us good men already too since many of us men were very much innocent from the very beginning right to the very end. Peace.

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    savvydating 3 months ago

    You've made some relevant points, SK. I agree that, as individuals, we are responsible for our own happiness. Happiness includes making wise choices. One of those choices may also be to choose romance and commitment. Personally, I do not demand that anyone be any particular way. If I do not like a man's behavior, then I don't spend time with him. For me. that's an easy decision. However, this is not the case for all women.

    In any event, the term "Hunter" is used loosely here in that it defines more clearly what a male Gatherer is not. In my hub, I am clear in letting women know that she is responsible for her decisions and her own happiness, whether a man is in her life or not. Thank you for stopping by to comment.

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    SK 3 months ago

    Hi Yves...I was born and raised in India. Now I am settled in Canada. I have seen two different world in my lifetime. Whereas, Asia is still patriarchal , women in Europe and America have much more freedom and opportunities. So in my opinion, what you have described is a "first-world" gender issue. It comes as a surprise that women in western countries are still confused and frustrated about "men and dating", when there are more pressing women's issues.

    Do women really want men to be hunters? Male dominated societies were formed by so called hunters who were never concerned about what women or other men wanted. They conquered territories belonging to others, never gave a damn about the lives of other men and treated women as objects.

    Now that world is gradually transitioning towards equality, men need to understand that women and less privileged men are not their resources. A man cannot decide how a woman should lead her life. Meanwhile women need to realize that men do not owe them romance, commitment or happiness. As long as he is not harming others, it is a man's choice whether to be hunter or gatherer. Women cannot decide that for him. In any modern, individualistic and peaceful society, each individual is responsible for his or her happiness and cannot hold opposite sex (or any other person) responsible for an unfulfilling life. If both sexes realize this fact, confusion and frustration will disappear.

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    savvydating 3 months ago

    Maybe men are called what you claim because statistics prove that women generally stick around to take care of their children. But if you want to "travel the world" and live for yourself alone, that is your perogative. I am simply here to share the truth---that relying on male gatherers is not a good idea. As you have shown, such men have no interest in commitment. Good luck, Dubai. Thanks for dropping by.

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    Hello and Dubai 3 months ago

    Sounds all great and simple. The over 50% divorce rate is more scary than free love though. Whether women want to admit it or not, we all know who is is discriminated in the courtroom. I grew up with my father in my life. It was when he and my mother split that showed me, being "a man" has no pay off. So, as this article complains once again about how men are inadequate and misogynistic, I would like to see women leave their thirst for monetary gains from their former spouses, before Im expected to commit anything. Sorry ladies, though living in a commune and having children out of wedlock isn't my thing, I still don't trust the current dating climate. I'm still happier going to school, working, living by myself, and travelling the world, of course, from time to time, I get the casual lay. Still have not been convinced to give up my life to pursue one with a "significant other" because the reality still stands, it is most likely to fail, I'll be stuck with the bill, and if men aren't already killing themselves in alarming numbers, divorce bumps an extra 11 times more likelyness of suicide to men. There is still the other side of the coin women keep forgetting about, but we guys are still called the selfish demograph of the species.

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    savvydating 3 months ago

    Hello Steve..... Men do want pleasure, but some are willing to commit to a woman they love. The male gatherer I speak of does not have the character needed to become a mature adult. Thus, he cannot love anybody. His only goal is pleasure. Some men choose to be better than that.

    Thank you for stopping by.

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    Steve Weatherbe 3 months ago

    Just one bone to pick, or a clarification. You seem early on to be equating the gatherer role, at least when men assume it, with an aversion to commitment. But the women in the gatherer role were big on commitment. I think the two different approaches to commitment have not changed. They are biological. WOmen, as childbearers and rearers, need committed support to undertake the role so important to species survival. Men want pleasure. Neither has changed in that regard.

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    savvydating 4 months ago

    I do not disagree. I've written an article about this very thing---of women becoming "masculine."

    However, I would encourage you not to blame women for everything. That being said, some feminist on the far left are not particularly reasonable, in my experience.

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    savvydating 4 months ago

    Simon, both sexes are frustrated. You had mentioned that divorce benefits women financially. That is not accurate, unless the husband was very wealthy. In most cases, his income was average and things get divided. Then the woman goes on to work and raise children. She generally has a very hard time of it.

    But You are right in saying that no man wants to be disrespected. He shouldn't be either, provided he is a decent person.

    Militant feminist may hate masculinity, but the rest of us love masculinity in a man. But as I mentioned, the roles are blurred.

    Thank you for expressing your views, Simon. I hear your frustration.

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    SimonSee 4 months ago

    One thing that feminism did not expect, would be that as women change, men would also change. Men wouldn't be as chivalrous and traditional as in the past anymore, just as women are not traditional anymore.

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    savvydating 4 months ago

    Hello Adam.....I do speak from a woman's point of view most of the time, but I have also stated that kindness or showing expression, in a male, is not weakness AT ALL. It is the opposite, in fact. If I seem dismissive at times, it is because I have had to delete about 1/3 of the comments I receive from men who were so vile, it is almost unimaginable.

    In truth, I am here to teach women to have self respect and to never fall for a man who treats them badly. Why some women put up with that sort of nonsense is beyond me. Even as a teenager I didn't put up with "crap." Furthermore, I never judged a man by how much money he makes. I look at how he treats me and how he treats others. My standards are anything but artificial, so I have no idea where how you came to that conclusion.

    Anyway, the point is that good women do exist, and I see no reason why you cannot find one in time. You are still very young. As for rape accusations, it happens---but in most cases, most women would rather jump off a bridge than go through a rape trial. Why? Because lawyers always make her out to be the "bad girl" even if she was a victim.

    As for your deciding to treat women badly these days, that only means you have chosen to date insecure women, whether you realize it or not because no worthwhile, self-assured woman would knowingly date a jerk. I assume you would like to marry a worthwhile woman one day. It would be well for you to alter some of your views regarding women. Frankly, I am sorry that you run into so many disrespectful women. Unfortunately, I hear the very same complaint from women---that men are not very nice nowadays. It seems to me that both sexes really need to get their acts together. That is why I write articles for both men and women---to help them get a clue.

    Thanks for commenting. I appreciate it.

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    savvydating 5 months ago

    Drew....I have been thinking of writing a hub about what women can do better, emotionally speaking. Personally, I have NEVER believed that men who show their emotions are weak. Just the opposite, in fact. But you are correct. Both sexes deserve respect when they show respect. That being said, I have had to delete dozens of comments from men who have used vulgar language here. There is a lot to be said for civility. Thank you for keeping your comments civil.

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    Drew 5 months ago

    It's understandable the views you have given that it was written from the standpoint of a woman. I would like you to consider some things however.

    I am a 27 year old male by the way.

    Have you approach a man you have interest in?

    Based on my observation most men a bombarbed with " men should respect women" from a child that we forget to teach our daughters that men are people with feelings as well. This has produced a generation of women who think it's perfectly ok to disrepct men even when it's not warranted. Just look on youtube with social experiments with women punching men in their face while people Just stand their an laugh. Believe it or not our experiences in life tend to mold our perception of people. I think you should write and article teaching women how to repect men who approach them even if they are not interested. Women can't disrespect a man who don't approach them and that's what it pretty much boils down to. Men avoid being disrespected. The dating scene is the ramifications of a society that forget men were people with feelings too. Unfortunately men play a big role in this by telling men expression emotions is a form of weakness. If women are forced to walk to up to guy, he is put in a position of power, he can obliterate her ego if he wants. I know it's not so appealing is it.

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    savvydating 5 months ago

    Taze, we would do well to become more God-centered. That is for sure. Thank you for saying so.

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    Banned cause of pissants promisem and deantraylor 5 months ago from TWO OF THE MANY LYING LIB CRYBABIES OF HUB PAGES

    Jason, what you describe does appear to be a situation that certainly increases stress, complication and worry for women who would like to find the man of their dreams or if it is so bad even just a man! But I think that if men are less obtainable that could be a good thing because maybe women, as Ives says, will concentrate more on knowing and developing themselves and take care of themselves. Some good advice for women today would be for them to cast all their cares upon Christ and trust them to Him so they can live their life worry free, content in whatever their father in heaven has planned for them. Life here is but a blip on the radar of eternity.

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    Paula 5 months ago from Beautiful Upstate New York

    ROFLMAO!!! Oh Yves, my wonderfully brilliant friend.....You CRACK me up, woman! I wouldn't know how proud his mother would be~~but the entire world is proud of YOU! 7 of the most powerful words ever written on HP!! LOL. I love it!

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    savvydating 5 months ago

    Charming. Your mother must be so proud.

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    savvydating 5 months ago

    That time, I laughed out loud---for real!!

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    Paula 5 months ago from Beautiful Upstate New York

    Thank you, thank you.....autographs after the show, folks.....and my newest CD for sale: "How to Let a Man Down, Without Having to Shoot Him.".......Please...no more applause......Thank you.

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    savvydating 5 months ago

    Okay...Now that is funny stuff, folks!

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    Paula 5 months ago from Beautiful Upstate New York

    Internet Commenter....aren't you a real lover boy. I can't imagine every top shelf woman not chomping at the bit to date you... Do you accept resume's or perhaps sell raffle tickets for a chance to be in your presence? Hey, big boy, mark me down for exactly zero tickets.

    It pains me to be the bearer of bad news, sweet cheeks, but babies inherit 50% DNA from Mama and 50% from Daddy. Not to worry though.....you can always dress your baby well to cover for your useless 50%.

    Keep that Rx. for penicillin filled!! You're gonna do just fine.

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    savvydating 5 months ago

    Yep, the "high standards" of which Internet Commentor" speaks of, are clearly lacking in his own life, Taze. Spoof or no spoof.

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    Banned cause of pissants promisem and deantraylor 5 months ago from TWO OF THE MANY LYING LIB CRYBABIES OF HUB PAGES

    Internet commenter - I can't believe a word you said. You are spoofing us, right?

    "I'm male, all I really want is to have sex and then move on. Sex is fun!" lol so you expect us to infer from that statement all males want to do is have sex because it is fun? Not very intelligent.

    "I don't want to screw your life up, and I expect the same consideration; I don't want to impose on your time" So being promiscuous in your mind can't lead to SDs which are a serious imposition upon you and your partners let alone can result in your early death. Not very intelligent.

    "I have my own life and skyrocketing career and hobbies and friends" Skyrocketing career? Kiss that good bye, based on your philosophy the only thing in your life that is likely to skyrocket is disease, depression and social exorcism. Not very intelligent.

    "my standards for personality and intelligence are extremely high...I don't want dumb kids" Your standards are far higher than your own intelligence which, and I think you know this, will only result in dumb kids if you were to father any. Not very intelligent.

    So you see, take it from someone who obviously far exceeds your standards for intelligence you aren't fooling me, your comment has to be meant as a spoof.

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    savvydating 5 months ago

    Wow! Narcissistic much? Internet Commenter, this hub article is not about celibacy. I don't think you have to worry about "true love." I can pretty much guarantee that a solid relationship is not in your future, unless you decide to become a decent person. But thanks for reading.

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    Internet Commenter 5 months ago

    Why do so many women have this bizarre infatuation with "true love"?

    I'm male; all I really want is to have sex and then move on. Sex is fun!

    I don't want to screw your life up, and I expect the same consideration; I don't want to impose on your time, and I expect the same consideration; I have my own life and skyrocketing career and hobbies and friends, and I hope you have yours. I'd love to have children, but my standards for personality and intelligence are extremely high--I don't want dumb kids. What should I do while I search for this superwoman? Be celibate?

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    savvydating 5 months ago

    So now we're talking about Star Wars? Get a life, Mike.

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    Mike 5 months ago

    Sadly Ives I read the entire author and you offered nothing new only probably leaving women in a worse place by doubling down on a strategy that doesn't work.

    Ives it's not all or never that's thinking in absolutes like the Sith hahahaha and a quick way to the dark side.

    We are talking about single successful people we all know great relationships.

    Who's not in the position to write about unhealthy delusions? You wrote this entire unrealistic piece it's not about me I wouldn't be here otherwise.

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    savvydating 5 months ago

    Absolutely, Taze. As an aside, I don't even want to contemplate what "incentives" are in Mike's world.

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    savvydating 5 months ago

    Thank you for re-posting, Taze. So true that "attractiveness is not the definition of femininity."

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    Banned cause of pissants promisem and deantraylor 5 months ago from TWO OF THE MANY LYING LIB CRYBABIES OF HUB PAGES

    Ives, what I said in my comment which disappeared was to thank you for telling it like it is and drawing a line with respect to Davenport's comments. And I mentioned that if men like him really knew anything about femininity (attractiveness is not the definition of femininity) they'd understand that women let men believe they are the pursuer when in reality it's the reverse...which is OK with me. :-)

    And thank you Ives for the compliment. I appreciate you too.

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    savvydating 5 months ago

    Mike, I do not think you are in a position to lecture anyone on "unhealthy delusions." I doubt that you even read the article.

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    Mike 5 months ago

    I'm tired of being told what a real man should be - especially from someone who clearly doesn't understand a man's perspective. I'm successful, and had a great father figure growing up. I feel like the advice here only tells women to double down and dig there heels in even deeper, and will only lead to more frustration. They really can't see outside themselves. Not only did this sexist piece box men unrealistically it is creating unhealthy delusions. Does the author ever consider looking in the mirror? If the incentives existed the successful men would be behaving in a way that led to long term monogamy, but they don't. Things are the way they are - just because you state your assumptions as fact doesn't make them true.

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    savvydating 5 months ago

    Taze, Will you kindly re-submit your comment. It appeared twice on my end. I deleted one (same) comment and everything disappeared. :(

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    savvydating 5 months ago

    Taze...there is a reason why you are successful with women...and why you have the good sense to love your particularly strong, feminine wife. Thank you for being an example of what a real man sounds like. I appreciate you.

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    savvydating 5 months ago

    Probably quite a lot, Steve42. Part of it is timing...

    The other part is a changing society. Nevertheless, most women I've met want to find the right man eventually, and for the long term. Good food for thought you've brought to the table today. Thank you for that.

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    Steve42 5 months ago

    I enjoyed the article and the comments. Food for thought.

    I think pursuit has changed a lot in the past 50 years because pursuit used to have a goal: finding a long term partner for marriage and children. And everyone was playing the same game.

    Nowadays people want different things - or they don't even know what they want. Short Term? Long term with no kids? One night stand? Kids with no relationship? Just fun and adventure for now? Or just want to make fun of the opposite sex with their friends? It's a grab bag.

    I wonder how many potential relationships were never formed because the two people who met wanted different things at the time.

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    savvydating 5 months ago

    To pursue out of genuine interest is not the same as stalking. Two different things. Thanks for stopping by, Phillip.

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    Phillip 5 months ago

    Pretty interesting. But still, if a man "pursues" a woman society deems him as a creeper or someone "out to get only one thing from a woman".

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    savvydating 5 months ago

    That helps a lot, Junko. However, we can also learn some things by observing what does not work in the lives of our parents. That made a difference in my young mind..,

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    junko 5 months ago

    In order to be a good man one must see a good man while a man-child. To recognize a good man a woman must have known the strength of a good man while a young lady.

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    savvydating 5 months ago

    The herbivores of Japan are quite mild mannered, and in that respect, they are unlike the majority of MGTOW's that I hear from. The herbviores may be an offshoot of MGTOW, but they seem quite different to me in that they have female friends, as you mentioned. Thanks for the book reference, Cygnus.

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    Cygnus2112 5 months ago

    I agree Yves. There is a platform of MGTOW ' that can express anger or frustrations with the dating game. in some type of non violent communication without hating on women. After all the MGTOW movement had some clear similarities to the Feminist movement in terms of men questioning their societal and cultural roles and thinking outside the box. Thankfully there are men's groups such as The Mankind Project where men can get together in unity and express their frustrations and get in touch with their emotions but can convert any hatred or negativity towards women into compassion. Women can do the same thing as men. If you look at the herbivores in Japan- the equivalent of MGTOW, many men have given up dating women and sex but they are not misogynistic. I've heard them interviewed. They have friends who are women but they have chosen to not get romantically involved with women but they are not hateful. Robert Bly and Sam Keen were 2 men who sort of led the MGTOW trend years ago. A great book is Sam Keen's" Fire in the Belly."

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    savvydating 5 months ago

    Taze...You are correct. That was a recent addition which is inaccurate, and which I had not yet changed. In my mind, I was thinking of the gatherers of the 60's, who claimed to be feminists, but who were secret chauvinists. In fact, I have a few small changes to make, which I hope to do today, if time permits.

    I appreciate your stopping by. It's a relief to hear from a man who doesn't hate women, for a change. Ha!

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    savvydating 5 months ago

    Pretty much, Paula. 99.9% of the MGTOW community is very hostile to women, in my experience..,,and they love telling me about their contempt for females. I've deleted about a third of the comments here, altogether. I'll delete more later on today. One man, Jason is not hostile, nor is Cygnus.

    I have allowed some of these men in as examples to women of what to avoid and why, as they have proved my point. Now it's time for them to go. Their presence is toxic, and hearing from them is enough for some women readers to give up on men altogether.

    Thanks for the reminder.

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    Banned cause of pissants promisem and deantraylor 5 months ago from TWO OF THE MANY LYING LIB CRYBABIES OF HUB PAGES

    Interesting hub page, Ives! I couldn't get by with just skimming it which I always do first because invariably I'll be stumped by a statement early on that reveals it is a hub page not even worth the read. This one I had to read it all. And I agree with your conclusions.

    I would like to point out however, you use the term hunter gatherer referring to the historic roots of the male gender and that "the reality is that the male gatherer has lost his instinct for honest romance and true commitment. He is not the gentle, caring, fair minded man he claimed to be."

    Correct me if I am wrong but the instinctive "male gatherer" of old was not what we would consider gentle, caring and fair minded nor do I think he claimed to be. History tells me of the prevalence of arranged marriages, concubines and then there was this http://cache4.asset-cache.net/xc/110904224.jpg?v=2...

    Great hub page.

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    Paula 5 months ago from Beautiful Upstate New York

    Yves......"Mark" has written in before? How special. You can only hope he doesn't take that opportunity again. Good grief, what a long-winded, blowhard. Apparently he needed the practice for his Sunday sermon.

    I feel no need to tolerate these trolls and sock puppets, even for a moment. If they truly believe they have opinions of substance, they can sign on as an official member, contribute to our overall site and be active, familiar participants. Period, the end. Otherwise, it would be greatly appreciated if they would find another outlet for their self-aggrandized philosophy.

    Clearly, they've admitted to being experts at finding "alternative outlets!" What twits!

    With an online identity as "LOL," and the ludicrous content of his comment, there's no logical way to respond but with humor! Try to get real, guys.

    It's beginning to look more and more like we need to activate and strengthen our Troll Eliminator Troops. (such a waste of our precious time.) You have quite the active thread here!

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    savvydating 5 months ago

    Paula, I did think about using a different word. Ha;) Truth be told, I get a lot of comments from porn addicts and from the MGTOW community. If society does begin providing more education on this very serious subject, we could end up like Japan, where men are turning away from women in droves.

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    Paula 5 months ago from Beautiful Upstate New York

    O-M-G, Yves. Now you KNOW I am not going to allow such fabulous comedy material to go untouched! My wit lit up like the 4th of July, reading the exchange between you & "LOL." What a guy...I think I'll adopt him. LOL

    Dear Mr. Porn, I truly understand your dilemma. A man's gotta do what a man's gotta do, eh? I'm not sure if it was "intentional" or not but I believe you meant to say that men do this to "alleviate" a problem......you actually printed "levitate" it. That has to be the best Freudian slip of all time!! Yes, LOL, I see what you mean. Porn certainly does levitate your problem.

    And Yves....your advice to LOL is just fine of course. I understand why you suggest to him that he may learn his lesson the hard way~~but that's exactly what he was trying to tell you!! For him, the only way IS the HARD way!! LOL LOL LOL ....I love you guys!! My mission is complete. LOL

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    savvydating 5 months ago

    Thank you, Paula. The dating situation is rather dire, I feel. Nevertheless, there are still men who love a good chase. Howevet, if the comments I get from many men on this site is any indication, those numbers are dwindling for reasons we did not forsee.

    Thanks for the rave review! I hope your beautiful granddaughter will get some useful information from this article. So good of you to share.;)

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    Paula 5 months ago from Beautiful Upstate New York

    Yves....the photo of the napping Mom & newborn is priceless~~just gave me a twinge of precious memories.........

    Excellent hub! I don't know how much I should divulge. In the 4 years since my husband passed away, I've only recently agreed to go to dinner a few times. Needless to say, I feel my "seriously-dating" days are long gone. I'm just not that into it.

    Frankly Yves, at this point in my life, I have no confusion nor frustration where "men" are concerned. LOL....(sorry, I was just thinking of some humdinger comments I could make~but I'll restrain myself)

    This fabulous dating tutorial of yours should be required reading for the young single woman who is out there looking for Mr. Right. The tips you give are invaluable. In fact, I'll be sending the link to my 24 year-old "gorgeous" Granddaughter!

    As for me? Girlfriend.....I could write my own BOOK!! LOL

    Great work, Yves. You should do the "Lecture Circuit!!" Paula

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    savvydating 5 months ago

    Why wouldn't I sympathize with my own gender?

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    Tim 5 months ago

    Coming from a feminist that sypathizes with her own gender.

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    savvydating 5 months ago

    Pablo, I agree that women who treat men badly do not deserve your respect. I do not approve of women who act like spoiled brats. Healthy relationships are a matter of give and take. Both parties must be responsible adults.

    I have observed that both men and women fail to take inventory of people's actions, as opposed to how they look. The old adage is true, "Beauty is as beauty does." Not all women act badly. The question to ask yourself is, "Why do you keep attracting the same type of woman?" I tell women to ask themselves the same thing. Good for thought.

    Thank you for writing in, Pablo. I appreciate your concerns.

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    savvydating 6 months ago

    Hello Kelly....I am describing what you wrote about in your last full paragraph. This article is intended as a warning against men who are contented to sit back and let women do all the work, to include asking him out and paying most of the expenses when dating or in a co-habitation scenario. Such men also demand that the woman prove herself to him, even though he is a free-loader or someone who uses women strictly as a sexual convenience. In short, I am warning women not to get involved with men who do not respect women. That is what this article is about. Thanks for commenting!

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    Kelly Stills 6 months ago

    Yves.

    I am curious for you to expand on exactly what you mean when you use the word "pursue" to describe what the men are supposed to be doing. It all seems very vague to me...insofar as applying it to a real life situation. Here are some quotes:

    "putting in the time and effort to pursue a woman who truly interests him, the way men used to do."

    "He is the guy who let's the women come to him. He does not pursue women."

    "She can let the man seek her."

    "Women actually liked having the man pursue her. His effort proved he had a level of interest."

    "who actually enjoy pursuing a woman, who exhibit patience and caring"

    "Once a woman has determined she is interested in someone, she is free to capture his attention. However, she does this with care. She does not rush into a situation without first finding out what she is getting into."

    I guess, to explain it, could you apply "pursuit" to some real life situations. Like, one in which the two have much contact and know each other despite lack of romantic relationship (co-workers, neighbors, church group, etc.). And another situation in which the two are otherwise strangers and met at a gathering in which they share no friends in common or met in a bookstore or something.

    I mean, when reading, one might assume you are speaking of the man simply asking the woman out, but if that is what you meant, it would be easy enough for you to write that. Plus, you seem to be indicating an ongoing action of some sort.

    From my perspective, in either of those situations, or many similar types, all that really needs to occur is something like this: The man or woman has interest in someone, they ask if they are interested in "going out", or something like that, preferably they speak about important compatibility points (on the phone or on a "date") to see if it is even worth pursuing anything, and if it seems like they could possibly work, they start investing time in getting to know one another. It escalates from there.

    It sounds like you are speaking of something completely different. But I don't know.

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    savvydating 6 months ago

    I hope so, Andrea...and thank you for your kind compliment. (Some of my male readers (though not all) have been less than generous. Lol.

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    Andrea 6 months ago

    Yves, thank you so much for this amazing article. You were able to articulate a lot of the frustration that I've been feeling with dating. This does seem to be a very real epidemic among single women that I know. Hopefully awereness can be raised!

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    savvydating 6 months ago

    JasonPrell....You make a good point about the MGTOW movement having an effect upon women and society, in the long run. In Japan, for example, the birth rate has gone down. This is not necessarily a good thing because a society needs new offspring to be innovative, to work, and to care for the elderly. China is having this problem as we speak, but in their case, it is because of their 1-child policy, which they have now altered.

    Anyway, I was short with Brian because he is an angry, sarcastic man. Consequently, I generally dismiss such men due to their lack of respect for women.

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    JasonPrell 6 months ago

    savvy dating wrote:

    Brian...Women are not the one's who will suffer if men choose to go the MGTOW route. You might want to do some research on men who give up. It isn't pretty. Meanwhile, women will simply go on about their business. Women I know are not desperate.

    As an MGTOW, I agree with you it that women are not desperate and many men who give up do fall into depression and women do go on with their lives. However, when many men give up

    like whats happening in Japan and the growing MGTOW here it does affect womenas well. After all if one gender loses we both do. We are all in this together. Even if one stable, successful man gives up ( I am not talking about the angry bitter MGTOW)there is one less man available for a woman. I agree with you many women are not desperate and will go n with their lives despite MGTOW. But when a lot of men give up- it does affect women. After all as humankind we are all in this together. I am not talking about the angry bitter hateful MGTOW. But the successful, caring MGTOW who has been wounded by women in his life. It has to affect women. Just like wounded women who protested in the feminist movement in the 1970's affected men. I know a lot of men who would care and be hurt or sad if lots of women gave up on dating and their was less women to date. Conversely when many wounded men who ordinarily would be good husband or boyfriends decide to give up dating and stay single it should make at least some women sad or have some effect on womankind. In a way I think women like you and blogs like this can be a way of healing and reaching out to MGTOW men. I think its sad that many men have given up- no one should be alone. Sure there are hateful MGTOW towards women but there are a lot of good MGTOW successful men who potentially would have been capable partners but have just been wounded.