Elaine Flowers is the co-author of "So... How Was Your Date? Dating Chronicles Of Single Men and Women" and the author of five other titles.
I haven’t done a lot of dating recently but I have done my fair share over the years. So, at the risk of sounding frustrated by today’s dating scene, I am going to go there. I know I share the sentiments of many women, especially those women who have had the fortunate experience, like myself, of being treated well by men. When you’ve been treated well, you just can’t accept the BS that goes on with today’s dating scene. Things that were once taken for granted are now just memories and sometimes those things are all together forgotten because the nonsense seems to be the status quo.
Here is a countdown of things men don't bother with anymore:
#10 Men don’t ask women on dates anymore
They’re called “Meet Ups” now. WTH? I understand that since the emergence of online dating, that meeting a new person in a public place is necessary under those circumstances. No problem there. But what has happened is it has taken the place of real dating. In those instances where two people know each other the guys are requesting to “meet” the woman at a location to “hang out” as opposed to actually picking her up to take her out.
#9 Men don’t ask women out in advance anymore
It’s Tuesday night and Sam rings Stephanie to catch up with her. After exchanging pleasantries for a moment, he gets to the point of his call: “There’s a new movie coming out this weekend. Would you like to check it out on Saturday?” By Friday, Steven is checking in to confirm things and then… Oh, wait—that’s 1984, not 2014. Now when a guy does actually ask a girl out, there’s barely enough time for her to do the necessary date-prep work.
#8 Men don’t take charge of dating plans anymore
There are few things more frustrating than when you finally decide to go out with a guy for dinner and he leaves all of the decisions of where to eat up to you. Not only is he showing his lack of real interest in showing you a good time, he’s running the risk of you going over his budget for the evening. Besides, women love it when a man takes charge but at the same time is open to her opinion.
#7 Men don’t show up at your door with a gift/token anymore
I don’t know when this stopped but I know it was a long time ago. Way back when, a guy would arrive to pick up his date holding something as simple as a single flower, teddy bear, or a book that she said she wanted to read. Wow… I don’t know if anyone does that anymore.
#6 Men don’t work at impressing anymore
Something happened with the media advancement of today’s age and the need to impress women. Men now seem to be under the assumption that women are supposed to impress them. I’m sure there are many places to point the finger but women have been tricked into thinking that they are supposed to be working at the pleasure of men in the virtual world and in real life. What happened to men working to prove that they are worthy and capable of being with a woman? Something is definitely wrong here.
#5 Men don’t give meaningful compliments anymore
Men whistling or giving a catcall when a woman walks down the street is nothing new. But that’s not what I’m talking about here. I’m referring to men ONLY taking notice of a woman’s physical attributes. And I’m not referring to locker room jargon, either. I’m talking about a man extending this nonsense onto the woman and trying to pass it off as compliments.
#4 Men don’t ask women to dance anymore
You’re at a club or even a private party and unlike back in the day when there were couples, there are groups of women on the dance floor and men standing on the sidelines either ogling them or ignoring them all together. Now if a woman doesn’t ask a man to dance, she’s stuck with not dancing at all or only getting off the wall to join in on a line dance.
#3 Men don’t buy drinks anymore
Not only are women not being asked to dance, men don’t offer to buy a woman a drink anymore. However, they have no problem taking up her time talking while sipping on theirs.
#2 Men don’t make phone calls anymore
I am all about modern technology but not to the chagrin of authentic communication. Texting is not a way to get to know someone. Texting is for, “I’m on my way,” “I’m running late,” not for, “What kind of work do you do?” and “Tell me about yourself.” Everyone being short on time and wanting to do things quickly has reduced us to this format of interaction and it just doesn’t work.
#1 Men don’t accept rejection anymore
I don’t know if men just don’t know how to take it or they’ve become more sensitive than they used to be, but they seem to be terrified of rejection. And this is the reason they don’t do the things listed here anymore. There is no middle ground—you know the man who puts in the effort and work to get the woman. Instead, they either don’t try at all or they don’t take ‘no’ for an answer.
Why Don't They?
The main reason that all of these things don’t happen anymore is because women, at large, stopped requiring them. We’ve turned men into lazy daters. You could argue that a guy is just not interested when he takes the short cuts, but I don’t think that’s it. Even when he’s genuinely interested, he doesn’t have to call—he can text; he doesn’t have to take a woman on a real date—today’s woman is fine with the meet-up; he doesn’t have to take notice of her brains and compassion—they go unnoticed because of her blossoming cleavage and big behind. I have always declared to be a romantic while making it very clear, however, that I am not a hopeless one, but I really wish we could just go back.
Bob on August 31, 2020:
This article should really be the reasons the author can't get asked out on a date. Because even if she did, she'd ruin the entire experience with her princess-level expectations and she'd turn the entire night into being 100% about her.
There are those of us who will take the initiative, compliment you, and if you play your cards right, buy you things/dates/drinks. But we're not about to waste our time on entitled women like the author who just want us to satisfy their demands for attention and free things.
RubyRedRR on August 04, 2020:
After reading this I understand why men aren't dating at all.
Seems like its an expensive chore, I can't imagine a guy having fun going out with a woman who thinks like this.
Women like you are ruining dating, get off your high horse and take that Tierra off.
Gary on August 02, 2020:
Funny it's all about what women want
Men are fed up being used as ATMs women walk around with an entitled view on men doing everything when it comes to dateing.
Oh by the way ladies, I thought you were strong independent women.
I must have forgotten you still want all the crap that simps do.
Valid questions. on May 09, 2020:
You asked very good questions, and I agree, it's all true. We are no longer incentivized to do any of those.
Life on this planet follows simple rules, such as: What works, continues. What doesn't, won't.
M39, Regards from Finland.
John on February 09, 2020:
Men aren't being lazy or scared - we've gotten smarter.
Yes we've stopped doing all the things, and guess what? Life is so much better! Why would we go back to you?
A simple cost/benefit analysis tells you that women aren't worth any effort at all. At. All. This is the wave of the future, and it's what you said you wanted. Now grow up and deal with the consequences of your actions.
Anon on December 23, 2019:
Siv Ingrid below is a voice of reason.
Anon on December 23, 2019:
You must be really out of touch if you're posting this in 2019. I lived in Dallas before and most people are not this unreasonable, so maybe you immigrated from Africa or something and retain a very traditional outlook.
Anyway, this list is ridiculously you-centered -- what can I get out of someone for free? Do I complain that my car mechanic won't fix my car for free? Uh, no.. that would not be fair/reasonable.
Carrying out any of the behaviors you list is like buying a lottery ticket, in that one is guaranteed to pay for something that may not amount to anything. What is the woman putting forth? All of these seem to imply that the woman on the receiving end is worth it, and if so, is also compatible. But that is very unlikely. So why is it fair that a guy continually orient his life around "impressing" or "organizing" nights out for women while women just sit there and grace the men with their presence. Sounds pretty messed up to me.
Ultimately, as they say, lottery tickets are a "tax on the poor", and therefore only saps or guys who have some sort of inferiority complex that drives them to be with someone would put in the unequal effort up front for a slim chance of something meaningful resulting from it.
Fred G Sanford on December 04, 2019:
She obviously has hypocrisy right, Woman. As, I'm sure, do you. Now get in the kitchen and make dinner like women are supposed to.
Woman on December 03, 2019:
You obviously got it right, sis. Look at all these men crying in the comments lol
dave1428 on November 25, 2019:
Reality check, what has really happened is women have been brainwashed into only wanting to date guys that are in the top 5% of the dating pool.
If you are going to chase someone out of your league then of course you will experience all the things you complained about.
Slartybartfast on November 25, 2019:
I used to do all the things on this list.
It's probably why I've been single all these years.
Stupid, outdated, double standards that should have died out thirty years ago.
Guys, if you do these things, you will ether stay single, or be abused in the relationship.
Women who demand these things are usually abusive and treat men as disposable utilities, avoid them.
Nagisawa on November 12, 2019:
Oh, sweetcheeks, oh no. Well, that's because this is what you ladies wanted. This is what the fear of God looks like. Let's break it down, in order.
10. Men Don't Ask Women on Dates Anymore.
Well, of course not. Most men hear all the horror stories of women taking poor victims to the cleaners, or how they're all monsters waiting to happen. This is what Feminism does.
9. Men don't ask in advance anymore.
Because this way, you won't try and ambush him, it's either yes or no. Besides, if he's asking you on this short notice, it's because he thinks your fine as you are. Take it as compliment. Oh wait, 5 will has the answer...
8. Men Don't Take Charge of Dating Plans Anymore
Well, no. Aren't you a smart, independent woman who need no man to dictate her life, uh-uh? Besides, the climate of fear that Feminism has instilled makes most women suspicious of men. Including the non-Feminist ones. Hoorah for control!
7. Men Don't Show Up At Your Door With a Gift/Token Anymore
When do you live? The 1950s? That's SEXIST! How dare he think he can buy your love!
6. Men Don't Work At Impressing Anymore
Well, no. The constant denigration and denial of masculinity, despite women still wanting it, has worked! This is what Feminists want, right?
5. Men Don't Give Meaningful Compliments Anymore.
Of course not. Because women never take them as such, accusing men of using them as cheap pick up lines, or having ulterior motives, like gasp, wanting to have sex with you! Except now that's bad, again. Women keep giving men mixed signals, we're not mind readers. We can only see what you give us, and of late, that's been derision and scorn.
4. Men Don't Ask Women To Dance Anymore
Because we don't want to be accused sexually assaulting you. It's easier for YOU ladies to ask out. But it's not fun being in the submissive position, eh? Well, that's what asking a person out puts you in. Men have always been the ones putting themselves in that role for generations.
3. Men Don't Buy Drinks Anymore
Given the constant add bombardment that he will give you a roofie, is it any wonder that men don't want to be blamed for your poor choices? It's a potential jail term for something he never did.
2. Men Don't Make Phone Calls.
Sweetie, only OLD people like me make phone calls, or calls to emergency services.
1. Men Don't Take Rejection Anymore
This one is actually tricky. Because being rejected runs the risk of being accused of a felony with REAL jail terms. On the other hand, can anyone point to me where the line of just being persistent to turning into a creepy stalker is? Cuz no one can tell me. At what point should a man give up on the woman?
Why Don't They?
So here's the accusation, men are 'Lazy', anything to make men look bad. Sorry, toots, we're not. We're just frightened that you're one of the crazy ones who will screw us for life, and not in any sort of fun way. This is what Feminism in Charge looks like. Hope you like it.
Mgtowking on November 09, 2019:
"A lot of them won't even talk to women, much less ask us out."
Go ahead and talk to them..ask them for for a date..what stops you? Dont act like a creepy women and make them uncomfortable.
"My campus is starting to look like it's an all girl school."
Why would men waste his time in education when school system is total female centric and bully boys.
"Online dating doesn't help, old short fat guys and clueless virgins who get mad because you don't reply to their three page love letters and a hundred messages a day that consists of "hi" from guys who live three states away and want you to bring the condoms."
They are male feminists who fights for your rights
"Fearful of women or worse apathetic, a lot of depression, internalized Misandry and confusion. That's the modern man..."
Thats actually modern women for you who dont know what they want..abuse and bully boys then wonder why men dont want to talk to them. Men (not feminist men) dont hate other men but they know women hate men and never ever support men the way men support women. Its not men who are crying about love and relationships but women. So we all know who is really in depression here..haha
RubyRedRR on November 07, 2019:
I'd be happy if a guy didn't run when I tried to talk to him like women are toxic waste or I'm going to steal his Xbox.
If you're expecting him to do all those things you're going to be disappointed.
Most guys are like, if she comes over I'll have sex with her when it's a good time to pause the game, after filling out a consent form.
A lot of them won't even talk to women, much less ask us out.
My campus is starting to look like it's an all girl school.
Online dating doesn't help, old short fat guys and clueless virgins who get mad because you don't reply to their three page love letters and a hundred messages a day that consists of "hi" from guys who live three states away and want you to bring the condoms.
Fearful of women or worse apathetic, a lot of depression, internalized Misandry and confusion. That's the modern man...
Redpill gives you wings. on October 01, 2019:
From this site...
In brackets Ive put some possible contradictions in reference to this article Vs the other...
How to Tell When a Man Likes You Too Much: 10 Signs That Let You Know if a Guy is Desperate
1. Your first date lasts an eternity (#8 Men don’t take charge of dating plans anymore)
2. He contacts you within an hour of your first date (#2 Men don’t make phone calls anymore)
3. He shows up at your house unannounced (#7 Men don’t show up at your door with a gift/token anymore)
4. He calls you more than once for every time you call him (#2 Men don’t make phone calls anymore)
5. He buys you stuff without any reason (#7 Men don’t show up at your door with a gift/token anymore) and (#6 Men don’t work at impressing anymore)
6. He won't leave
7. He tries inappropriate romantic stuff on the first few dates (#6 Men don’t work at impressing anymore)
8. He invites you to meet his parents on the first three dates-
9. He tells you he loves you before your third date
10. One of his hands is always in his pocket
John Galt on September 30, 2019:
I challenge any man to do the most basic cost to benefit analysis when it comes to women and dating. After doing so you will find that it's simply not worth it...that what you put in never comes close to what you get out. The juice isn't just not worth the squeeze, it never was!
That's the trick! Women have tricked men into thinking they are the prize, when it's the other way around. More and more men are catching on and in time, things will only get worse.
A Realgood Man on September 30, 2019:
Are for rejection...Men are so used to it because that's all women dish out. Women date several guys at once and have betas standing by to make sure to feed their vanity. Women have conditioned men and set "The rules" and men are only following the game set by women!
Area Man on September 29, 2019:
Gosh Elaine - all these tasks you list sure do sound SEXIST. If men were to list all the things women don't do anymore, well then oh-my-goodness watch out for the flying vitriol that would follow. See, the thing about perceived 'equality' is that both sides contribute 'EQUALLY.'
The minute you start marching and screaming you are 'Equal to' or 'Superior to' or "Don't need no man,' well - there goes your privilege to special treatment as well. You don't get to fight for equality, and simultaneously be treated like a delicate flower at the same time. Those days are GONE FOREVER.
The things you are complaining about are a direct result of the climate you women have created, NOT because "You have stopped requiring them." If you think you have that much power, let us know how that works for you when you start making those demands.
The days of using men as mules and Lilly pads are over. As one person said "The juice is no longer worth the squeeze" Enjoy your future with your ridiculous and outdated demands.
Fred G Sanford on September 11, 2019:
4 weeks ago
Elaine you should not have wasted your time effort on these negative sorry excuses for men that have written comments on this site. They are bitter, unhappy and unmasculine. They don't know the first thing about what it is to be a man. Just ignore them. There are decent men out there that don't think anything like them. Its a numbers game. Just keep dating until the traditional nice guy who doesn't have large amounts of baggage comes along."
Shouldn't you be in the kitchen making some man a sandwich? Or perhaps cleaning the house? Or are you a woman who doesn't know the first thing about what it is to be a woman, someone who is bitter, unhappy and unfeminine? Or do you hypocritically think that gender roles should only apply to men and not women? My guess is the latter.
CJS-1 on September 11, 2019:
These ten points have no relevance in the modern age whatsoever. We have “equality” now and women in many cases have more degrees and earning power than men.
Therefore women can no longer cherry pick or expect men to play by traditional rules.
Due to movements such as #metoo it is unlikely that any reasoning man will flirt, pursue, compliment, be alone with you - especially in a professional setting.
Dining out is expensive – why should a man you only just met shoulder such a bill? That doesn’t appear very egalitarian to me.
If you have been dating for a period and it’s a special occasion fair enough, however relationships should always be reciprocal otherwise it is doomed from the outset.
I have warned my 26 year old daughter saying that if she wishes to marry and have a family she will have to up her game significantly.
If not a childless future with cats awaits because men today are no longer willing to take any risks - especially those involving draconian divorce laws leaving him as a potential destitute on a park bench.
Sorry ladies but this is only going to get worse….far worse and the people to blame is the communist sisterhood, big daddy government and go girl culture.
Lisa on August 07, 2019:
Elaine you should not have wasted your time effort on these negative sorry excuses for men that have written comments on this site. They are bitter, unhappy and unmasculine. They don't know the first thing about what it is to be a man. Just ignore them. There are decent men out there that don't think anything like them. Its a numbers game. Just keep dating until the traditional nice guy who doesn't have large amounts of baggage comes along.
Sleevy on August 06, 2019:
It’s the natural progression of a society of equals. The old. Social contract no longer applies. When Women became self reliant and equal and diagnosed men as inherently toxic predators it is a wonder they talk to you at all. The juice is no longer worth the squeeze and women in general have become large potential liabilities. We just did the math, and its to risky
Fer on July 16, 2019:
I don´t approach woman, ´cause, is illegal. In some countries, you can go to jail if you say "hello".
To Ny on June 28, 2019:
with women becoming so obese tattooed beat up and broken there really is no reason to do for women anymore. they really are done with life at the age of 25. And i am NOT going to volunteer my time/help/money to some fly by night street walker. this is 2019 not 1950
im sorry but if you see your gender as women,you my friend are in the blind not us men.
Sandstrikes on May 07, 2019:
10. I find that women are more open to "hanging out" than a serious date.
9. I always try to plan things a week or two in advance, however plans I make usually get swept under the rug for more important things, like the bachelor episodes.
8. Double edged sword. Women aren't happy if the man is making her decisions. They are also not happy if they actually have to make their own decisions.
7. My only comment is buying something every time we go out on a date as well as paying for dinner/activities is going to kill the wallet.
6. To actually impress women, I would have to have a successful career, nice car, nice house, and the perfect body. To impress me, literally have an intelligent conversation with me and I am hooked.
5. I agree here, I don't fall in this trend however.
4. Not really the dancing type.
3. Because of the new feminism movement, I attempt to be friendly and buy a drink for a pretty girl, the first thing assumed is I spiked it with something to "get in her pants". Now I just don't bother.
2. I think both men and women could improve here.
1. Rejection is turned into a public shaming event. Maybe that means I'm more sensitive, but isn't that what women want? For more men to express emotion.
Disclaimer* These are my experiences/opinions, it is ok to disagree but be civilized. Thanks.
AMan on April 14, 2019:
10. Did you ever think you could ask the guy out? Why would I want to ask someone out. Get tired of being told no, or laughed at by women in the bars. So if you are interested in a guy maybe you should make the first step.
9. Refer to #10.
8. Maybe we do2 not care where we go. Maybe we just want to make you happy.
7. What is this the 50s?
6. Wny would I want to try to impress a woman now days? I can get a date on an app, go out have a good time, and then not see her again.
5. Refer to #6
4. Why would I? Go into a bar, ask a woman to dance, get rejected. Then I am supposed to do this again to help your ego. No thanks.
3. You have a job, right?
2. You can dial a phone right?
1. Why bother.
I can easily find a date for the night, then never see her again.
Mgtow Master on April 14, 2019:
Elaine, men owe you nothing... not our time, not our money, not our emotional labor... learn to respect men as equals is my advice to you...
Elaine Flowers (author) from Dallas, Texas on February 21, 2019:
One this is for sure, something different needs to be done when it comes to men and women getting together. We're still trying to get our footing with all of the new ways to date and meet people. Thanks for your comment!
JJ on February 10, 2019:
I have several comments about this... . I believe you are correct: social media makes people lazy (e.g. the swipe, else text, else updates, else the thumbs up, else commenting, etc.). The true, unfiltered, unrefined self is seen when talking to someone, doing something with someone: it might not work out, but at least it's not a "filter", and that scares a lot of people. I meet many wonderful, genuine, caring, lovely ladies in passing (a walk, a coffee shop, old books store, restaurants, etc), but unfortunately, none would work out for me, or I for them: I can be a bit selfish with my time, and they are too, with theirs - that's not good for anyone. There are things I honestly hate during a dinner or when in someone's company, even for coffee - it happens from time to time - is them not being attentive to the company that's present and instead placing importance on their phone, worse, I've seen a lot of lack of social intelligence (I think digital media has buried them and their ability to show inflection, participate in a conversation, or made tapping a phone an addiction). Maybe there won't be a fix, maybe there will be. The novelty of smart phones with dating apps is still new (a few years old at the most as the first smart phone, Apply iPhone, only came out about 10 years ago), so maybe in another 20 years, it may be outed, else just another device, like a television or microwave, and people will get back to enjoying the comfort and entertainment of each other without needing to rush for their phones. Or maybe this social experiment of men needing to be sensitive, while women over reaction to men's courting, will fade in time as both discover,"Huh, 1000's of years of evolution was by natures design, lets get back to some convention people, for the sake of humanity, sanity, and good old fashion procreation." Courting is a human, biological imperative. PS great article.
james on January 20, 2019:
i used to treat women like ladies and got friend zoned; treat them with indifference and i have more ladies than I can handle. so, why exactly should a guy do these 10 things?
Jermaine22 on January 15, 2019:
And then there's some of us..that are just too cocky, and get taken down hard, and then give up all the "game." I used to be 1 of those player types. When I met my gf (of 10 mos now), I saw she was thick, had on black leggings and had a poker face on. I tried to be smooth and play it off, by not looking down so she wouldn't notice. I couldn't against her like that. For the first time, my eyes went down, my jaw dropped
Elaine Flowers (author) from Dallas, Texas on January 10, 2019:
I'm not sure I understand your questions (hence your question marks). Is this a reply to someone else's comment?
Old Geezer on January 08, 2019:
Really? Guys no longer fall for princess behavior? By wannabe princesses? I am sooooo disappointed.
Eric T Brown on December 31, 2018:
Well women don't act like women anymore they are manly acting and act like they hate men. And to be honest a lot of women are not worth dating anymore.
Cackus on October 30, 2018:
The total cost of my last date was $1,100 this was 11 years ago .
As a guy I'm expected to be the one who asks ( I'd rather go to the dentist for an unneeded root canal )
All for the privilege of being interviewed like a candidate for a job with way way way too many applications.
Any man with self respect will quickly decide this just isn't worth it.
Tim on September 15, 2018:
Asking women out? LOL! Online dating is a farce and favors women. Striking a conversation out in about? Bars? Lol!! It’s harder today than it was 30 years ago.
Leo Q. on September 04, 2018:
I am not seeing any reason to try to approach a girl anymore. They always behave aggressively and guarded against men and for some reason they think they can mock, bully and even ruin men's reputation just for trying to say something. I do not need that sh1t anymore. Nowadays I tend to ignore and ghost them at every time , it is easy just to hold your face up to the sky.Paradoxically one lady told me once "wow, what a rude attitude not to say hello back" I replied " My mom told me not to talk to strangers":
Allen on August 19, 2018:
I never ask women out because there's no way any woman would choose me when she has other guys to choose from. There is zero chance I could attract any woman, so there is no point in asking. “Just try - ask her out - you never know..." I am constantly told. Rejection sucks, especially when you know in your heart and mind that it's guaranteed every time.
Fred G Sanford on August 19, 2018:
This is the dumbest article I've ever read. If chivalry is dead, women killed it. You wanted equality but now you whine and cry that men don't do enough to comply with your idea of a traditional male role.
Old school on June 08, 2018:
Take away all that BS. Such as twitter, facebook, snapchat, hashtag whatever....people will have no other choice but to communicate face to face. And men will start to notice women more like they did back in the day. Too many people are hiding behind their Facebook accounts and not going out to meet people. And if a man meets a woman he wants sex right away because he is so dam n horny from being on his cell phone and hiding behind his Facebook account and looking at nude photos of women all week. Men and women need to get out more and learn how to talk to one another. You might just have fun doing that!
Allen on May 17, 2018:
I’m constantly reading posts all over the internet that tell guys like me to change my ‘limiting beliefs’ about myself. This ‘advice’ is written mainly by well-meaning people who have never been introverted or shy at all and as such have had ‘normal’ experiences with women, some of whom have shown clear signs of interest in these guys, which contributed to the guy’s image of himself as someone who can attract women. They have no idea what it’s actually like to be invisible to women because they’ve never been there. In my case, I have never had any woman show even the slightest interest in me – I am totally invisible to them. I never show interest in them either because the fact is, if an extremely introverted guy like me just says hello to a woman, in our society, there’s a 50/50 chance she’ll scream at me on public and accuse me of sexual harassment. This is true and I’ve personally seen it happen.
What I've noticed... on May 08, 2018:
What I've noticed is that the younger generations are being conditioned to believe that (from a male POV, because that's what I am) if date 1 goes well then automatically you're in a relationship and suddenly it's texting every day. If she doesn't text you all the time after date 1 then she isn't interested. If she doesn't run to a mountain top and should her love for you then don't even think about date 2...because she's not interested. A lot of the dating advice out there (on the Internet) advises guys of the things the woman would be doing if she was interested (and if not, she's not) and it's all the stuff the guy should be doing...making the moves, planning the dates, spending the money, etc. What happened to the guy taking the woman out, planning things (but being open to suggestions), and paying for it? "But dude, what is she giving you in return?" Who the fuck cares?! If you're only doing it to get something in return (sex or not) then why do it at all? If you're doing it for anything other than to spend time with her because, IDK...you like her...then you probably shouldn't be doing it.
I was conditioned to believe that date 1 was the gateway to an immediate relationship and it went: date 1, GF/BF, waiting around until it felt right to ask her to marry me, we're married...nothing in between any of those steps, period. I recently, like a month ago, met a girl and we've been dating. Dating. Actual dates. I take her out and show her a good time and we connect OUTSIDE THE BEDROOM. At first I questioned whether or not she was interested because there wasn't the text all the time thing after date 1 or we're nearing the end of month one and haven't had the BF/GF talk. But then I realized that this must be what actual real dating is like. And then she told me she was Southern and I noticed some things and a light-bulb went off in my head. She's southern so she wants the formality of dating, but she IS interested and does see us getting into a relationship, but she wants to date first. YES. I love it.
I was just so conditioned against traditional dating that I didn't understand what was going on when that's what the girl wanted. I knew what it was in theory, but not in practice. I'd never done it, didn't know what it was. I do now and I love it. I love connecting outside the bedroom and getting to know the person and not having to worry that it might only be lust instead of actual real feelings. I love it.
All the relationships that became GF/BF before date 1 even ended never worked. I should have known better than to get into them, and would have, if I was busier getting to know them instead of just assuming I already did (c'mon she's my GF) and just "hanging out" with her like we didn't need to get to know more about each other.
From the POV of a guy who accidentally found out what it's like to date someone...it's awesome. If you like the person the time/effort is worth it. And it it's not...then how much do you really like them?
Allen on May 05, 2018:
For those of us [guys] who are extreme introverts and who aren’t used to approaching women and hooking up all the time, it takes literally every ounce of courage we have to approach women at all, even just to say hi. From the time we’re teenagers, we see overzealous girls who will call it sexual harassment and try to ruin a guy’s reputation if he so much as says hello. No, that’s not an exaggeration.
I remember being 18, standing around for a bus, asking a woman who was probably 23 for the time because my phone was dead. She went off on a rant, apparently perceiving this as a pickup line, and judging me of course unworthy, even though I just wanted to figure out when the next bus was. And every time I said “sorry to bother you” she’d go off again. “what kind of man says I’m sorry!!” It’s women like that we remember, when we think about saying hello, and it just shuts us down completely. There are many more stories I can recall right now of that sort. The fact is, I’m now 31 have never so much as held hands or kissed a woman – and of course I’ve never been asked out by a woman either.
So my question is – why would I, or any other guy – take a 50/50 risk of being screamed at and called a creep in public, and / or accused of sexual harassment with all the ensuing destruction to all areas of my life?
Stella on April 18, 2018:
This article is soooo true and so frustrating. In today's world, women are becoming like the type of man they will never find. We have to, we have no choice. We have to take the reins and build a nest egg for ourselves. I think it's great to see how far we've come but I'm also frightened by today's man. I meet more amazing single women daily...the last time I met a great single man....not sure.
Adrian on April 02, 2018:
It actually women who date less but still have a multitude of sexual partner's.
Elaine Flowers (author) from Dallas, Texas on February 25, 2018:
Thank you, thank you, thank you! I can exhale a bit now.
CB99 on February 24, 2018:
It's funny how some of the posters here just don't get this article and I am sorry but if you are a millennial you most likely fall into that category. Smarmy2 stop already with your ignorance. It was not that long ago that men did exactly what this article states. What planet are you from? Did your parents not tell you about the society of their youth? Also please stop with the whining! If you are so damned upset with your stupid idea of how women are taking over the world well then why the hell don't men do something about it? Who do think started feminism? Do you not know history? It wasn't women. Here's another fact: Men were once men and not self pitying whiners.
Suvi on February 06, 2018:
I´m a Finnish woman and I see where you are going. It´s about building up sexual attraction?
True, women let men get away with bad behavior. Still, I believe that women could be more proactive by making the first move. Also contributing is important: if guy takes you to a movie, buy something for you two to eat/drink.
For the ladies I would advise to be more open to talk many guys online, then narrow down to longer chats, then phone calls and then have real, proper dates with few guys until you find your match. Slow and steady!
For men, be active and don´t worry too much. Women get burned too. There is a Finnish saying: "A timid man can´t have a beautiful bride." It´s all about to take risk in love by being vulnerable. Oh and don´t forget those romantic gestures! Women make you wait, but you can always ask. Third time is a charm, that´s her final answer.
Proud Bachelor on January 30, 2018:
Yardly Smith, you should teach at schools and enlighten our young boys about life! Of the list, the only one I agree is the last one as many friends suffered by the hands of men who couldn't take a no. However, the other 9 elements of the list are laughable! The same way men don't have the right to expect anything from a woman, women also aren't entitleted to ANYTHING at all. In fact, not paying for your own stuff and part of the date is enough for me to vanish without looking back. I will not feel obligated to be a "gentleman" for a woman who knows how to be a modern girl only when it suits her, this is not fair nor right. We should be teaching young boys to respect women the same way you would respect another human being, of course, but let her pull her own chairs, stop leaching you and acting like a damsel only when it suits her but forgetting it comes to reciprocate. Honestly, after my divorce, I'll never put another woman in my house!
Elaine Flowers (author) from Dallas, Texas on January 28, 2018:
MidThirties, thank you for your words of wisdom. Yes, things have changed in drastic ways and the rise in technology is certainly a factor. All the best in finding an awesome woman to share your life with.
MidThirties on January 27, 2018:
The world is a constantly changing place, we can never go back to how things were before as long as technology is taking over our lives. Nobody can point the finger at men or women in this aspect. So long as the world grows more technologically advanced, relationships will become more and more superficial. EFFORT is the only key to success in any aspect of life. Love is a two way street, and expectation is the mother of all heartache. The only one you can expect more from is yourself. I am happily single and will remain that way until I find a woman who is already trying. Skin color is irrelevant, I wish people would just omit the subject.
Elaine Flowers (author) from Dallas, Texas on January 11, 2018:
Suzette, I'm so sorry for the loss of your husband. Cherish those memories for sure but I hope that God (the Universe) will bless you once again. I have a wonderful man in my life so I know it is still possible to find respectful men. However, if you remain single, there's nothing wrong with that either!
Suzette on January 10, 2018:
I read the above article about dating . I wholeheartedly agree with everything that is said. I've been noticing more and more the moral decline in all the dating sites and men and wemon in general.
I've been trying to meet a decent guy for 4 years now since becoming a widow in 2011.
Honestly I was quite surprised when I realized how difficult this would be.
I am a attractive late 50s woman well groomed and athletic . most all men I've met make little to no effort when it comes to dating and put us all in the same box because most wemon have allowed it. They seem to want someone who will cook , clean, and then shut up and lay down for them. Not this girl omg how the dating world has changed.
So my plan is to stay single for a long , long time.
Good luck everyone!!!
Smarmy2 on November 29, 2017:
#1 Men don’t accept rejection anymore . Some women are so angry at men that even a simple hello can illicit an extreme and overblown negative reaction. They may be few, but I can't tell them from the others can you?
#2 Men don’t make phone calls anymore, Huh? I don't get this one at all.
#3 Men don’t buy drinks anymore, see #1
#4 Men don’t ask women to dance anymore, again see #1
#5 Men don’t give meaningful compliments anymore yep #1. Compliments are now called "Objectification."
#6 Men don’t work at impressing anymore. I don't even know how to respond to this, it's just plain stupid.
#7 Men don’t show up at your door with a gift/token anymore. Why should they? Creepy.
#8 Men don’t take charge of dating plans anymore. Seriously what century do you live in?
#9 Men don’t ask women out in advance anymore. Neither do women.
#10 Men don’t ask women on dates anymore. What do you think a date is? It's literally that a date, a time when you meet. You are thinking of an event.
yardly smith on November 13, 2017:
Down in the thread you denied that women can be sexist just as blacks cannot be racists. Here is the REAL definition of racist:
a person who believes in racism, the doctrine that one's own racial group is superior or that a particular racial group is inferior to the others.
The key word here is "BELIEF". You do not need to have POWER over society to have a belief WITHIN a society. Does the fact that America not ascribe to Christian doctrines as a matter of law, negate my beliefs in Christianity? Are you saying, because I don't have power over society, I cannot be Christian?
Because that is exactly what you are saying about racism. I can be a racist because I am white and according to you, by saying blacks cannot be racists it must be so that, whites have power over society. Thus only whites can be racists.
But if I were black, I can't be racists according to you, because I don't have power over society and by this same logic, I cannot be Christian either because as a Christian I don't have power over society. And we well know that being a Christian is to ascribe to community values that are indeed projected upon society. If you don't believe that, then just ask any blue haired feminazi what she thinks about Christianity. So as a black man, I can neither be racist or a Christian because I have no power to effect either upon society.
So clearly, by your definition of racism, only those that can force their beliefs on other people.....have the capacity to.....have beliefs. Everyone else without power, have no beliefs.
This is the absolute dumbest argument in history. Of course blacks can be racists. If you don't believe me, just find the porn site Blacks on Blonds where big black d!@#$ tear open little white chicks and you will find plenty of racism. Racist misogyny at its darkest.
So YES.....women can and ARE very sexist. The have expectations of men which by definition is SEXISM. If a man has an expectation of a woman he is attacked mercilessly by women, universities, women's groups and the media. Men are supposed to let women do whatever they want and be happy about it. Men are NOT to expect anything from a woman that a woman does not want to give. So women should think about men the same exact way. If men want to be liberated from the costs and risks of dating, then women should accept the new reality and move on. Stop badgering men with your sexist arguments about how men owe you cash and prizes for the honor of giving you attention. Forget about it. The very idea that you are upset that men are fed up with dating is nothing but sexist, hateful misandry. And we men are done with the abuse. We don't owe you a thing. You don't owe us sex and we don't owe you attention, courtship and free stuff.
Why is this so hard for a woman's brain to understand?
Dating is an OLD paradigm that has no place in the modern world. Courtship died like a 100 years ago, just as arranged marriages before it. So too, shall dating vanish. Wooing women is stupid and old fashioned and sexist. The very idea of a gentleman is sexists. There is no such thing anymore as a "gentleman". There are only people who identify as men and they may have as many different variations of "maleness" as can be created in the imagination. Men and women as ideas don't exist anymore. So men, who feel like men can redefine what a man is, that suits his interest. Not society's interest, and especially not women's interest.
YOU people who identify as WOMEN have freed men to take charge of our own identity. And we are just starting to leave the plantation of male servitude to women. MGTOW is growing and men everywhere in the world are leaving and we are not coming back.
Sure we will bang you from time to time. But you can forget about marriage and living with us. Only simps will go that far. As the word spreads that it is okay to define ourselves just as women and transsexuals and gays define themselves.....we men will finally be free of you and you will have to finally treat us as equals and drop all that silly non-sense about expecting cash and prizes from us, for the privilege of giving you attention.
Now, I am going to go spend the next 8 hours playing Xbox and finish by watching porn where I will get much more reward for my time, than I EVER would simping to some woman in the desperate hope she will give me sex.
yardly smith on November 13, 2017:
You are the biggest mangina in this thread.
"Since women now can work (not that they get paid as much as men do and are the ones who have to give up at least some of their work life if not career to have children) men should be raising the courtship bar not lowering it, women bring more to the table now than ever before, the only men who complain about that are misogynists who see womens only purpose as to serve them. A lot of men who engage in it are un or under employed, have poor social skills, are unattractive physically and mentally and have a dog eat dog mentality..."
"Women bring more to the table now that ever before". Yeah?? Like what? More debt? More divorces? More whining? More entitlement? More man-bashing? Certainly not more cooking, cleaning, caring for men or children. Why do you even think a man needs a woman's income?? A man can live BETTER on his own income ALONE, than he EVER will, by adding a woman's income to his. When a man let's a woman into his life...he LOSES income. She takes the majority of his income for herself, runs up the household debt and leaves him holding the bills when she divorces him and takes the kids. WOMEN bring NOTHING to the table anymore. NOTHING!!!! Except sex. And a man can get more sex from women he sees, than a woman he marries.
The idea that men are unhappy with women today because men are "losers" as you describe them, is utterly sexist and laughably dismissive. As if to say, only well adjusted men with great jobs and a healthy acceptance of all women's BS is normal. Listen bud, you know next to jack crap. It is the precisely the "alpha" men who are doing all the vagina busting in this world and they rarely bother dating. The women are so nasty and hypergamist, they are throwing their panties at them. You must be the most unobservant white knight here. Clearly you haven't heard about the 80/20 ratio. When 80% of the women ride the penis carousal of 20% of the men.....dating is superfluous. How is it, that you cannot see this?
yardly smith on November 13, 2017:
All I want to know is why is the internet saturated with whining females all complaining that they don't have men killing themselves for the "privilege" of taking them out and wasting money on them. 9 out of 10 women are NOT even worth dating anymore. That is number one. The word "slut" is an understatement for today's female. Next, 80% of women chase 20% of the men. HYPERGAMY is super strong in today's hyper-materialistic females. Next, women are the ENEMY. They have taken over the STATE, the UNIVERSITIES, COURTS and the JOBS. They are given special protections and privileges in all things. Next, for at least 30 years all you women have done NOTHING but call men EVIL and we are sick of it. You project a never ending sense of entitlement. This article being a prime example. MEN DON'T OWE YOU A DATE!!!! We don't owe you anything. The ONLY reason we have to pay for dates is for the most part you are all to cowardly to ask a man out and too CHEAP and SELFISH to pay for the date. Next, your politics SUCK. Liberal women suck. I personally have vowed to NEVER date let alone marry a liberal woman. I'm sick of being told how much I owe to everyone else. I owe the world NOTHING. You want to give your country up to an invasion, be my guest, but don't ask me to sit by your side as you complain about how you want to move to a better --- that's code for "whiter" school district forcing me to spend an extra 100k to 200k so your little ungrateful spawn can have more white kids to play with, while you virtue signal to all your friends how "liberal" and awesome you are. Women are disgusting hypocrites who by the way are the most responsible for the devastation to the environment and abuse of worker's rights world wide as women spend the majority of all income on CRAP made by salves in countries that poison the planet. Women are the most entitled, non-introspective monsters who have taken the role of men from men, but demand men be men, so long as men understand they are equal, but only in power, not in responsibility, especially financially. You control EVERYTHING and demand men wait on you hand and foot and take the blame for your dissatisfaction as if your satisfaction was actually a man's job. It isn't Princess. And the final rub, you get to get away with saying the most sexist crap like "man up" to men. What does that even mean? It is soooo stupid. There is no such thing anymore. Women have left the kitchen. Our job to take care of you and protect you is OVER. Time to move on ladies. This is what equality looks like. You don't get to compete against men 95% of your life and then the other 5% you get to play the "little girl" where men strive to save you, help you, flatter you, bring resources to you in the form of gifts, free dinners and drinks. You are our competition now. You are just like other men to us, but much much worse in every single way. At the end of the day, you are annoying, ungrateful users who walk this earth with a chip on your shoulder and an ego that could cut glass. Get over yourselves, go to work and shut the hell up. Be grateful men even still want to have sex with you. And that is getting to be very not worth it as well. MGTOW forever!!!!!
Elaine Flowers (author) from Dallas, Texas on November 04, 2017:
Yes.Believe me, once we get you, we will have our own work to put in.
Elaine Flowers (author) from Dallas, Texas on October 31, 2017:
Thank you, Happiness!
Happiness on October 31, 2017:
They don't make the type of man you are describing anymore. Only very few left. It's called old school with class, such as High quality; admirable style; cachet
I would go back with you but we can't so we just have to make the best with the present and then who knows what future brings?
Elaine Flowers (author) from Dallas, Texas on October 24, 2017:
Hilarious! Good question, actually. I'm pretty sure I would.
Philzz on October 24, 2017:
Good Lord, you are needy af.
Would you even date someone like you?
Josh on October 13, 2017:
You sound like the type of women I avoid. Needy, high maintenance and self absorbed with no ability to question your own psyche, which is why you continue to be a low quality prospect with no critical thinking skills or independence.
If you women are going to spend so much time in front of the mirror then I'd suggest putting down the lipstick and asking your reflection why you feel the need to cover the real you. You might start making some progress on your personalities.
Brittany on October 06, 2017:
This article is dead on! I am so happy that I'm not the only woman out there who is disappointed by all these lazy daters. Men need to pick up the phone and call - you cannot get to know a person through text!! I recently dated a man who so afraid of rejection, he ruined the chances of us ever getting close and blooming into something. Grow up Peter Pan's!!!
Arthur on September 25, 2017:
I’m 46 and never been married, never had a girlfriend and never had a date, had sex or been kissed I’ve been rejected by every woman I’ve asked out from high school onwards. At this point I’ve given up on it ever happening – it’s better to just retreat into my shell and not bother trying ever again – what’s the point. I don’t know why nothing ever happened – none of my women friends have any idea either. I’m not a ‘nice’ (passive doormat) guy; I’m genuine, friendly and have a great sense of humour. My experience has shown that no matter what I do, I’m just not – and obviously cannot be – attractive in *that* way to any woman.
Elaine Flowers (author) from Dallas, Texas on September 05, 2017:
I'm sorry that's how you feel. However, I believe there is someone out there for everyone who wants to couple up.
Mark on September 04, 2017:
As a very shy and introverted guy, I never ask women out – and never will – because rejection is always guaranteed. I’m not scared of rejection – it’s for sure going to happen with every / any woman I might approach. Given this, I see no point in doing something which is 100% guaranteed to be doomed to failure.
Elaine Flowers (author) from Dallas, Texas on August 21, 2017:
Thank you Larry!
Elaine Flowers (author) from Dallas, Texas on August 21, 2017:
This is an interesting perspective so thanks for sharing it.
Jack on August 19, 2017:
Hmmm, I do those things for my female friends. I am just not interested in marrying or having sex. I prefer to live a celibate life because in that way I am in more control of my life. I also prefer women as non sexual friends as opposed to lovers because then they truly like me for who I am and they don't try to control me. They treat me with more respect than they treat their boyfriends; and I give them love and advice, just not via sex. Getting over my sexual urges was like getting out of jail for me. I don't dare go back to that world, sorry ladies.
Elaine Flowers (author) from Dallas, Texas on August 17, 2017:
You are so right, Nina! Thanks!
Elaine Flowers (author) from Dallas, Texas on August 17, 2017:
Here's my very humble opinion: even when women make the first move, eventually they lose respect. Whether it's on the first date or much later during an eventual relationship when the guy has adhered to the pace of her making all the first moves and decisions. So, your intuition is most likely correct. I think the the best way for a guy to handle being asked out by a woman is to, if he is truly interested in her, tell her nicely that he would prefer to do the asking, and then ask... That's my two cents on this subject. Also, I suggest you avoid all rude women and guess what, all women aren't rude. Good luck out there!
Steve on August 17, 2017:
Hmm, waiting to be asked out again or do it myself?...ha, I've been asking myself that since the date and seconf guessing myself.
Well, as a guy who usually does the approaching it was quite flattering to be asked out (first time ever!) now I'm wondering if it makes a man seem weak if he lets a woman ask him out?, will only a really Alpha/feminist woman ask a guy out in which case do they see you as a beta?, should i have rejected her advances to appear stronger which sounds sort of daft as I did fancy her.
On reflection I think I prefer doing the asking, it just feels better to me and more exciting (will she/won't she) even if it sometimes comes with crushing rejection :) which is another thing that seems to have changed a lot.
In my twenties women who weren't interested in your advances would mostly let you down gently whereas women nowadays, especially if in a group seem to delight in rejecting men in the most embarrassing way possible .. and it's having an effect as lots of my male friends in their 30's are going full MGTOW and rejecting any sort of relationships as they just don't want to approach women anymore...
Forgot to mention I'm in the UK.
Nina Woods on August 17, 2017:
Its certainly not all or nothing. I bought dinners and gifts (for no special occasion) for my last boyfriend. In fact, I paid for one of our first dates!
Ive always liked buying gifts for my boyfriends.
One of the best things he would buy me was a bag of beignets for $3.
Things dont have to be expensive or one sided.
Elaine Flowers (author) from Dallas, Texas on August 16, 2017:
Thanks for the comment, Steve!
I promise, all women are not like that, or most even. Keep dating and be thankful that woman showed you who she was early on. Question: will you be waiting to be asked out again, or will you be doing the asking now?
Paul on August 15, 2017:
Thank you for responding, Elaine. While I have never been affected negatively at a personal level by expressing interest in a woman I find attractive (I've never been on a date because I've never asked a woman out), I have heard this happens a lot from friends and others. I wish I could find the elusive 'good woman' you refer to, but am almost certain it will never happen.
Elaine Flowers (author) from Dallas, Texas on August 14, 2017:
I believe what you're saying, but it's so hard. Because women outnumber men, therefore having a hard time finding a good man, it's hard to believe that men have that same struggle. But too many men say it for it not to be true. Sad times we're living in. Thanks for the comment.
Elaine Flowers (author) from Dallas, Texas on August 08, 2017:
You certainly make several good points. Things may not differ as much as you think from Norway to the US, the article is based on how things used to be. The problem here now is that some men have become bitter because of the way things used to be. And now when women make too many first moves, it sets the pace for the developing relationship and that can ultimately be emasculating for a man. Those are my thoughts...Thank you so much for posting and your input!
Siv Ingrid on August 08, 2017:
I am a woman, but I am just thinking loud on behalf of the men here. If I was expected to initiate every single date I went on, and even pay for every expense (gifts and all) then all these dates, that may or may not turn out well, it would end up being quite costly to maintain, right?
I do support the idea of showing a clear initiative, maybe pick up the phone instead of text, plan the date a bit in advance. On that note, I think the initiative could also be made by women?
I don´t live in USA, maybe the dating scene differs from where I live. I can´t say I´ve ever been to serious dates where a guy pays for everything, and honestly the thought of that makes me a bit uncomfortable.
I am all about showing effort, it does not have to be extravagant.
I would not need my dates to take place at expensive dining places. What about preparing an inexpensive homemade meal? Meeting at a quiet cafe? Going for a swim in the summer? As long as you want to do it together, is that not the point?
I do think the dating culture in the US differs quite a bit from where I live (I live in Norway). I think dates should be about getting to know each other, and show some genuine interest in the person you asked out, no matter who made the initiative.
Is it not give and take?
Elaine Flowers (author) from Dallas, Texas on August 03, 2017:
Thanks for your comment Diana!
Diana Harvey from Philippines on August 03, 2017:
Hmm, what you are saying is in essence 100% correct, however there4 are so many women around that are actual bitches with a capital B that I think the have turned most men into little mice.
I am older than my BF and I say to him, you cvould go out with women younger than me and he just laughs. He says you look at a woman the wrong way and you are supposedly raping them, gone are the days he says when you send over a drink because most probably she will come over and pour it over you.
As to bringing a flower or whatever, he says ha, ha forget it.
I think ladies that due to some they have ruined it for most of us.
Elaine Flowers (author) from Dallas, Texas on August 02, 2017:
Thanks so much for your comment, Nina!
Just like I tell the guys with horror stories of women they've encountered, there are more good guys out there than you/we may believe are out there. It may have to do with where we commonly go to meet guys; instead of the club or a bar, may the book store, for example...
Nina Woods on August 02, 2017:
@Catrina, this stuff is part of the reason I am single so much.
If I date i want to date,not be treated like an object. Guys nowadays do way less and expect way more. Most men ask for sex on the first date. For all the talk about men wanting love, many prioritize the sex! I've maybe had one guy, just one, who put sex on hold to get to know women. Otherwise it's, "I paid $12 for your dinner ro $5 for your drink, so have sex with me now."
Elaine Flowers (author) from Dallas, Texas on July 31, 2017:
Okay, before I laugh at that last line, let me comment on your perspective. Wow! I don't doubt what you're saying but I certainly find it startling. But, surely for every woman you've discovered like the one you characterized, there MUST be at least three who are interested in having a guy like you take them out. That whole scenario I find sad and disturbing. Maybe search in a better pool of women...I suggest. #fingerscrossed
Marty Frazier on July 31, 2017:
Great article Elaine!
The one thing I find is that it seems women don't know how to be courted this way anymore. I'm 33 and all of your stuff seems normal for a date, but women just arent into one on one dates anymore. At least not from the outset.
I brought a flower on a date before. My date awkwardly accepted it but later told her friend, whom I work with, that "he gave me a flower thinking I'd sleep with him on the first date". That was not even my intention at all. Sleeping together wasn't even on my mind. Unfortunately, going on a one on one first date makes women think you're trying to get "laid" the same night.
Seems women today dont even want one-on-one dates. They want group dates. They dont want the "gentlemen" experience either. They want to be friends with the guy first. They want the meetup and have fun experience, not necessarily the one on one dating experience with a true gentleman.
To put it into perspective, this is also the generation that wears pajamas as outerwear...
Keith B on July 22, 2017:
I read this list and the last one about men being sensitive is not the issue. The fact is no guy wants to jump through hoops and so forth. I haven't dated since 2005 and I refuse to date western society women. The fact it's become work and really unpleasant.
Elaine Flowers (author) from Dallas, Texas on July 18, 2017:
Thank you, Karen!
Karen on July 18, 2017:
Thank you for the post. I miss the old dating scene and real dates too. I guess I'm expected to just hang out for what seems like an endless time and impress the guy while he makes no effort. This I won't do. This new style of dating is too exhausting.
JimTheFlyer on July 15, 2017:
Well, I neither drink nor smoke, and I do not go to bars or clubs. Loud music gives me a headache and I much prefer hunting, fishing, hiking or putting in my normal 16 hour work day. Most of these "tips" are amusing, but not much else.
Elaine Flowers (author) from Dallas, Texas on July 13, 2017:
Thank you so much for your post. Yes, it was long, but well worth the read. I hope you continue to work on your confidence and get out in search for love more often. Your intelligence and kind heart convince me you deserve it.
Your post was insightful in general, but in particular, this paragraph:
"Some men are reacting to all of this by simply shutting their minds off to love and marriage and turning themselves elsewhere, because their social status is lowering as a general rule (Personally, I often feel like the media is trying to make me feel ashamed for being a male, with the rise of feminism/stories about men committing sexual crimes, or is distorting me into believing I must be “male” as the media sees fit, eg, mister hyper masculine, super muscular, million dollar yacht owning, business investor, stock bond holder, SUV-driving superhuman! It feels like your confidence is a mirror, and someone is throwing stones at it all day long!)."
Thanks again and all the best with your health and your heart!
JCN2 on July 13, 2017:
I'm a mid-20s old male, and have currently been single my whole life. Personal opinion/story about the "current" state of dating affairs if anyone is interested in reading.
I'd have to say that after reading a lot of comments in this article, I was somewhat surprised, but not entirely, at the anger and bitterness expressed by many men, or women, and various other reactions. I myself have been a victim of having been "played around with" by women (and once, even lost a close male friend because of a Greek tragedy style adventure... he “stabbed me” in the back over a woman), and these things really, really do hurt. I have also been rejected several times, but the problem with the pain associated with the rejection was the lack of clarity beforehand, or "friendship treason". I have already handled a straight forward rejection with a friend whom I fell in love with 1 year after knowing her, and have remained close friends as it was handled properly. Partly to blame, maybe, is a chronic mental disease that I was carrying around with me for 8 or 9 years un-diagnosed, as well as my field of education and work (STEM, male dominated area).
I'm not particularly attractive I think - maybe a 6 or 7 out of ten (that's subjective, of course, but medication for my condition does tend to make me a bit pudgy or “open up my appetite”, and sleep issues sometimes make my eyes appear sunken). Now that I've finished with my education, and have gone into a line of work I enjoy, as well as had my underlying medical condition diagnosed and under control, I do feel more comfortable with myself, but I have to watch my stress levels and deal with paying the bills and living life on a regular basis - it leaves you little time with to invest into dating.
One of the problems with modern day society is that it's incredibly competitive (more so when you have to deal with lifelong, chronic mental disease, which is a rising issue in the western world - I manage to make the ends meet somehow and do have a stable life at the moment). Men and women are under so much pressure, especially the younger people today who are just beginning their careers! In my case, I know there is a non-negligible chance that stress could send me back to a psychiatric ward.
This does lead me to speculate about stress levels involved when an intimate relationship ends poorly – I must avoid things like that which may trigger the condition to reassert itself, even though medication! And as much as I hate to admit it, for some women, mental disease is a big no-go. Furthermore, looking at the rate of marriages that turn into divorces for people with my condition makes my eyes bulge-out, at around 90%...
I no longer try to be particularly chivalrous purely for "dating" reasons, or attempt to "impress" women because, for one, women never really approach me in general, and my “chivalrous” attempts seem to come off as awkward/desperate. To be honest, I've somewhat given up on actively searching for any sort of intimate, romantic relationship, though rarely a do have a day or so when I change my mind. I'm the only person in my friends group that hasn't ever had any sort of relationship, short of just being a doormat or the very temporary rebound guy - ever (though I have learned to stop that happening). I am working on confidence as well.
I don't however generalize women as one whole group of mean persons and am aware that maybe of just had a couple of bad experiences. I do, however, remain polite to people regardless of gender as a principle, it is my genuine belief that holding doors or other such general tidbits are socially “normal” to do, and for friends, paying for a friend's coffee every now and then or taking a friend out to dinner is something you do as well, and the service is often paid back because that's the way friendship works. To further this point, I consider myself lucky, that I have many friends, both male and female, and do appreciate that many of these friendships are of a relatively deep level, and I do go above and beyond the call of duty when I can for my friends, so I am not alone. It does give me some sense of purpose and intimacy which is somewhat fulfilling.
The major problem I believe in today's society contempt for romance (or rather, the trend in that direction) neither completely stems from women nor men. It's more of a deep-rooted societal crisis, which I believe, is caused in part by BOTH men and women, mainly by what I see as a lack of maturity, in today's ever more consumerist and narcissistic and "laissez-faire, everything goes!" western society (I am note trying to come off as a know-it-all, this is just a hypothesis I support).
First off, romance and love is oversold as being perfect and the “one in all” answer to ALL your problems. Wrong. It’s just like everything else in terms of trade-offs, except it is a long-term, very deep and personal commitment you will be making to a person. Heck, it’s the person you plan on having children with to raise! Secondly, and to complement the first point, is a lack of maturity in regards to what people want and need (categorizing, thinking about it too much, getting overly angry over it, people always wanting attention, and seeing people as purely “investments”….) It should be very simple, whether it is for friends or romance: set some appropriate, not “too high” or “too low” standards, think a bit for yourself, if an opportunity is available try to see where it goes, for the rejectee, don’t take it personally or go against wishes, and for the rejector, be polite, but direct, and don’t be rude or washy-washy about it, and as a general rule, stay around the people whose company you enjoy. People get scared to move and get angry at society when there is no longer any security or integrity/honor in relationships and how the system plays itself along.
Some men are reacting to all of this by simply shutting their minds off to love and marriage and turning themselves elsewhere, because their social status is lowering as a general rule (Personally, I often feel like the media is trying to make me feel ashamed for being a male, with the rise of feminism/stories about men committing sexual crimes, or is distorting me into believing I must be “male” as the media sees fit, eg, mister hyper masculine, super muscular, million dollar yacht owning, business investor, stock bond holder, SUV-driving superhuman! It feels like your confidence is a mirror, and someone is throwing stones at it all day long!).
Some women are reacting to all of this by having “little princess syndrome” and have (too much, in my opinion) power in being able to falsely accuse men of rape or such things, and get waaay too much preferential treatment in the justice system. And on top of that, there is some institutional bias which helps neither side (pay gaps, gender issues in professional environments...).
All of these evolving social phenomena have completely trashed standard, classical social norms of society, intimate relationships included, and we are lost in a sea of self-doubt, division, and growing hatred of one another. There is no single fault or cause, except for society as a whole organism. Of course not every human is like this, but it is a growing problem.
Social Darwinism (on a great scale) will take its course: if men and women no longer fall in love and under a societal model, and if society fails to correct itself, then the society will eventually fall apart or become so dysfunctional very extreme auto-corrective measures (eg war or dystopia) will be taken. Otherwise things may fall back into order.
As for the article, I’d love to do dates and romance “à la old school” – but I haven’t found anyone who would care to reciprocate - partly due to me not searching and not having the time – and being afraid of having repeats of very painful experiences with immature people – maybe one day… (I would particularly like doing #s 8, 7 or 5 as a suitor, and consider of course alternating, as per egalitarianism). #2, texting, is arguably, my weak point. But I’m working on it!
Thanks for the article, it was interesting, and did get me rambling!
Elaine Flowers (author) from Dallas, Texas on July 11, 2017:
Omari Valentine on July 10, 2017:
Most of these have to do with the fact that these gestures are not necessary, and will either be used up on women who are playing a numbers game, or are not actually interested in dating more than casually.
If you transported a guy who did all of these things from the 1950's, he would get chewed up and spit out by the dating scene today.
Men don't have endless resources for game-playing. They see guys being successful at wooing women with Skittles, so they woo women with Skittles.
Case-in-point: Men don't buy drinks for women because women use men for free drinks
Elaine Flowers (author) from Dallas, Texas on July 05, 2017:
Thanks for the comment, Simon.
I agree 100%. Women have become desperate, therefore tainted the dating pool. It's good to know there are guys out there still waiting on a good woman and willing to truly love her.
Elaine Flowers (author) from Dallas, Texas on July 03, 2017:
Thanks for the info, Mason.
Elaine Flowers (author) from Dallas, Texas on June 15, 2017:
Thanks for the comment. I'm laughing at some of what you said, but you certainly have some golden nuggets in here. Yes, women have a bad habit (myself included) of trying to turn a man into what we want. None of us are perfect, we just have to hook up with someone whose faults we can live with it and find someone who can live with our's. We can't turn back the clock, you're right about that. And honestly, we shouldn't want to but it's difficult watching things change so drastically. Thank you for taking the time to share your thoughts!
Don F1212 on June 15, 2017:
"A lot of women like a man they can 'fix up'". Most of us guys don't want to be fixed, molded nor changed. I hear it from female friends, family members and coworkers. "If he would just do x,y,z." Change his clothing attire, have him spend less time doing something she doesn't believe he should be doing. That is a huge problem for us guys! I would think that any woman wouldn't appreciate it if every guy was pushing openly or softly to change?
"Hey, I was thinking, wouldn't you like to wear this outfit instead of that one?". "Do you really want to go to that place,". "Why are you eating that?". I can hear the yelling now and see the eye stare burning into any guy that would go there. Yet women routinely will do this to guys. "Don't you want to change your clothes before we go out?". "Are you sure you want that big burger?". "Here, let me help you with that" (fixing his hair, appearance, etc).
No one should like to have someone tell them how to be, what to eat, wear, etc. That's wrong on a human level.
As for buying a woman a drink, that's up to the individual guy. I stopped that long ago. Many women expect it and don't appreciate it but will get frustrated when it is not automatically given.
Most of us guys are not women haters anymore than I think most women are not men haters.
Social norms have changed. 1910's. Women wore dresses that covered them from neck to toes. It was not-womanly to show ankles nor legs. Thankfully we have progressed. Women's place was in the home, cooking, cleaning and taking care of the men when they got home from work. Do we want to go back to that? I can hear my mother, sister and females everywhere cursing and ready to fight not to go back to that!
In our current day society, most everyone has to produce an income on their own. Single, married, living together. One income is not even close to live off of unless you're ok being either homeless or one paycheck away from homeless.
Women and men can perform any job that is available. Doctor, fire person, police, construction, engineer, politician, CEO, sales leader. Any job, any career opportunities are able to be performed by both genders. Some tasks may be performed better by one or the other. A guy working a physical job such as carrying office furniture may be able to carry more weight but there are hand trucks, wheeled pallets to help as well.
Feminism is what it is. Both positive and negative. The economics of many western countries is what it is. Also both positive and negative.
We can not turn back time. Men nor Women can cherry pick what they want to keep and what the want to bring back in today's time. We keep trying, hoping, praying, blogging but it can't be done or it would have been by now.
Men can't have women act as the women of generations ago.
Women can't have men act as the men of generations ago.
Long winded here but it is that simple. Frustrating? Yes! For both sexes!
Take care of yourself. Help to take care of your family members. Each of us can have a fulfilling live if we could focus on less and put more of our energies in a few priorities.
Elaine Flowers (author) from Dallas, Texas on June 14, 2017:
Thanks for your comment, Steve.
Yes, I agree. It is sad that many women are as you've described. But I believe that there are plenty of good ones out there too. You just have to know where to find them.
Steve on June 14, 2017:
It is very unfortunate that the women of today have really changed for the worst of all too since they certainly have no respect for many of us good men these days at all. Very troubled women nowadays that are everywhere now with a rotten personality to go along with it. Very difficult for many of us men trying to start a conversation with a woman that we would really like to meet since most of these women are so very extremely dangerous nowadays. And there are many of us good men that would really know how to treat a good woman with a lot of love and respect which they just don't give us men a chance at all which very much explains why many of us men are still single today. Women are quite different today from the past since most of the women years ago were the very complete opposite of what these women are today since most of them now are just so very horrible to meet now altogether. I am very shocked how the women of today really are now especially with all of these reality TV shows that they have on as well as social media that has really corrupted many of the women of today since it is all about them now as well unfortunately. It is very obvious to me that many of us men are just too good for these type of women anyway since many of us men have been hurt very badly already at one time having our wife cheating on us. And many of us men were the very faithful ones from the very beginning to the very end when we were married at one time.
Elaine Flowers (author) from Dallas, Texas on June 12, 2017:
I am so serious when I ask this question: where in the world are you (and obviously many others who've posted here) finding these horrible women that you describe? Seriously, where? I know there are some bad choices for women, as well as there are for men. I realize that I am from a much earlier generation but even the younger women that I know, just don't behave in this manner. But you mention these women as if that is all you're finding out there. That is startling to me. I seriously hope you answer the question. BTW, thanks for the comment.